Hubert Davis Catch-all

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Bigs23 said:
Elite defensive players

KePom
26-3
25-5
24-16
23- 16

That's good for sure.
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2024 had Kyle Flilipowski as their rim protector and jeremy roach at point (with mccain on the wing). Not elite defensive personnel. I thought he targeted and recruited some great defensive fits (maliq brown, sion james) from the portal as well and I also much prefer it to our defensive style. Hate the guy, and i think he’s becoming far more smug this year, but he’s definitely taken a next step imo
 
Calheel said:
Mike Davis at Indiana. Joe B Hall at Kentucky. Mark Pope at Kentucky. Gene Bartow at UCLA.
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Are you saying that Joe B Hall didn't have success? He won a title and was a runner-up in his first six years, half of which came during the Wooden era. His downfall was that he had been cheating, and Rupp had been cheating, and they got put on sanctions.

Gene Bartow was an outside hire. Mike Davis did not take over an elite program. IU hadn't been to the Final Four in 8 years, or even the sweet 16 in six. Their seasons before Knight was dismissed were: R64, R32, R32, R64, R64, R64.
 
sringwal said:
I've watched other programs like State go from great to mediocre, largely because they pulled the trigger too quickly on coaches with moderate success. The biggest mistake State made was getting rid of Sendek. Hubert reminds me, in a lot of ways, of Sendek. It's part of why I think we need to give him more of a chance.
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I read this and you made me change my mind. I now we think we need to fire Hubert right away, rather than waiting.

Joking, obviously, but comparing Hubert to Sendek is not a comparison that's going to make anyone feel good. Sendek got one top 6 NCAAT seed and made one S16 in ten seasons. Calling his program "great" is a wild overstatement. I will acknowledge that State's efforts to replace him with someone better have not gone well, but do you really think Sendek was about to lead State to the promised land behind Engin Atsur and Gavin Grant if he hadn't been fired?
 
superrific said:
1. Dean's well oiled recruiting machine was nowhere near as well oiled as the Duke machine. We weren't getting top 5 players year in and year out, and certainly not in those numbers. We had 'Tawn and Vince in a really good recruiting class. Mcinnis too. And then . . . Okulaja. Who turned out to be a great surprise, but the point is that Dean was rarely able to bring in whole classes of nothing but burger boys, and certainly not three or four top 10 recruits a year.

2. Gut was old and had one foot out the door almost from the beginning.

3. I very much doubt that anyone is going to Duke to be coached by Scheyer. You think Cam Boozer gives a shit about Scheyer? What does Scheyer have to teach him? Boozer has had skills trainers since middle school (more than likely), and a Dad who can teach him a few things here or there. After he leaves, he will have plenty more skills trainers and coaches.

Flagg was ready for the pros before he got to Duke. He wasn't looking to be coached. He was looking for a place he could show out for a year and do some winning with the other top 10 talents.
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Yes, the coach is extremely important in securing talent. You said yourself when you cited Gut’s age (by the way, Kelvin Sampson is recruiting great at Houston at an older age)

And part of the reason we are having trouble recruiting is because of our coach. This program is incredibly attractive to recruits. There is absolutely no reason a Xavian Lee should be going to Florida or a McNealy should be going to Louisville or a Nait George to Syracuse. Given the media exposure that comes with a NC jersey, recruits should be flocking to our doors.
 
uncjhodges said:
2024 had Kyle Flilipowski as their rim protector and jeremy roach at point (with mccain on the wing). Not elite defensive personnel. I thought he targeted and recruited some great defensive fits (maliq brown, sion james) from the portal as well and I also much prefer it to our defensive style. Hate the guy, and i think he’s becoming far more smug this year, but he’s definitely taken a next step imo
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I don't get it. Duke was not particularly elite in 24. Kenpom put them at 16. And I'm not sure why you think the roster full of McD AAs did not have any elite defensive personnel.
 
superrific said:
Are you saying that Joe B Hall didn't have success? He won a title and was a runner-up in his first six years, half of which came during the Wooden era. His downfall was that he had been cheating, and Rupp had been cheating, and they got put on sanctions.

Gene Bartow was an outside hire. Mike Davis did not take over an elite program. IU hadn't been to the Final Four in 8 years, or even the sweet 16 in six. Their seasons before Knight was dismissed were: R64, R32, R32, R64, R64, R64.
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Give me your list of all coaches that have done better than Scheyer in taking over for an elite coach.
 
sringwal said:
We must thread that needle. Hubert has missed a few stitches, but - again - I'm not convinced that they were stitches that anybody else would have made. He was given a nearly impossible task, at an era where college basketball was going through its biggest transition in my lifetime, and he has earned a passing grade.
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This is what I've been trying to hone in on, and no one has really tried to answer. Why are programs like the ones I mentioned - Arizona, Duke, Purdue, UConn, Houston - managing the transition to a new era better than we are? They're not all doing it the same way, either - Duke is bringing in waves of NBA talent every year, while Purdue is doing it with an impressive level of roster continuity and good old midwestern fundamentals. The others are all somewhere in between.

Those programs have been through the same transition to the NIL era that we have. Some of them have changed coaches in the same time frame as us too. So what are they doing differently than us, and why can't we do the same? Why are they "threading the needle" better than us? Or all they all being successful by doing things that are inconsistent with the values of UNC bball? If so, then how so?
 
Calheel said:
Yes, the coach is extremely important in securing talent. You said yourself when you cited Gut’s age (by the way, Kelvin Sampson is recruiting great at Houston at an older age)

And part of the reason we are having trouble recruiting is because of our coach. This program is incredibly attractive to recruits. There is absolutely no reason a Xavian Lee should be going to Florida or a McNealy should be going to Louisville or a Nait George to Syracuse. Given the media exposure that comes with a NC jersey, recruits should be flocking to our doors.
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Well, I will grant you that players don't typically want to play for a coach who might not last more than a year. It's why recruiting from the hot seat is so hard, which is why universities will often do things like give stupid contract extensions to guys to give the impression of not being on the hot seat.

But also Gut was 30 years ago. It was before the one and done era.

I remember reading about a conversation between Andre Iguodala and Sean May, where Iggy was riding May for saying that he might stay until his junior year. Iggy was like, nah you're going to be done in two, just like me. What stands out now is that the confident position was staying for two. No way Iggy would stay for more than one now.
 
Some of the logic I hear from our fans sounds like this:

Scheyer walked into a dream situation, so his excellent results don't mean he's a good coach. Hubert walked into a nearly impossible situation, so the fact that he's managed to do even halfway decent shows he's a good coach.

What is about their respective situations that mean that Scheyer has had it easier than everyone else, while Hubert has had it harder than everyone else?
 
rodoheel said:
I read this and you made me change my mind. I now we think we need to fire Hubert right away, rather than waiting.

Joking, obviously, but comparing Hubert to Sendek is not a comparison that's going to make anyone feel good. Sendek got one top 6 NCAAT seed and made one S16 in ten seasons. Calling his program "great" is a wild overstatement. I will acknowledge that State's efforts to replace him with someone better have not gone well, but do you really think Sendek was about to lead State to the promised land behind Engin Atsur and Gavin Grant if he hadn't been fired?
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I think firing him was a huge mistake and moved NC State from "above average, but not great" to terrible. And I believe that he was onto something coaching wise that was a lot more likely to breed success than what they have seen since.
 
sringwal said:
I think firing him was a huge mistake and moved NC State from "above average, but not great" to terrible. And I believe that he was onto something coaching wise that was a lot more likely to breed success than what they have seen since.
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Right, but at UNC, "above average, but not great" is completely unacceptable. So saying Hubert reminds you of Sendek does not really sound like you're saying you think Hubert can be an elite HC.
 
rodoheel said:
Some of the logic I hear from our fans sounds like this:

Scheyer walked into a dream situation, so his excellent results don't mean he's a good coach. Hubert walked into a nearly impossible situation, so the fact that he's managed to do even halfway decent shows he's a good coach.

What is about their respective situations that mean that Scheyer has had it easier than everyone else, while Hubert has had it harder than everyone else?
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Yea well Scheyer did walk into a dream situation for recruiting
But yea, beyond that , coaching counts
 
superrific said:
I don't get it. Duke was not particularly elite in 24. Kenpom put them at 16. And I'm not sure why you think the roster full of McD AAs did not have any elite defensive personnel.
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Im not saying they didn’t have any elite defensive personnel, but they certainly didn’t have alot in 2024 (Procter, maybe Mitchell) Getting that group of players to a top 20 defensive rating is pretty good imo. As is getting almost completely different personnel into the top 5 back to back years. It’s certainly been a large difference in the 2 teams over the past 4 years (especially taking over for K who truly was his rolling the ball out there at the end)
 
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