Hubert Davis Catch-all

[superrific]

Give me your list of all coaches that have done better than Scheyer in taking over for an elite coach.

Roy took over for a guy whose last three years were Final Four, S16, national champs. Except Roy started on probation with scholarship restrictions. Took him three years to get back to the Final Four.

BTW, I'm looking at Larry Brown's coaching tenure at Kansas. Did you know Popovich was his assistant coach? In fact, Pop took a leave of absence from his HEAD COACHing job to be a volunteer assistant under Larry. Finished his contract, became an actual paid assistant for Larry for a year and then followed Larry to the Spurs.

Popovich taking a year sabbatical to be a volunteer assistant is one of the craziest things I've seen recently.

 

[donbosco]

Is THIS the problem?

"Carolina is not a pitstop university. It's not a pitstop program."

"I want guys that are fully invested in this program who want to be here, whether they're here one year, two years, three years or four years. I want you to unpack your bag and I want both feet in. And so those are the type of guys that I want. If somebody wants to use North Carolina as a pitstop and use North Carolina for NIL deals, then that's not the guy for Carolina. They’re not going to come here.”

Carolina Basketball Team NIL Event Ushers in New Era

The autograph event costs $100 and will take place from 2-3 p.m. at Chapel Hill Sportswear on Friday.

247sports.com

 

[superrific]

Im not saying they didn’t have any elite defensive personnel, but they certainly didn’t have alot in 2024 (Procter, maybe Mitchell) Getting that group of players to a top 20 defensive rating is pretty good imo. As is getting almost completely different personnel into the top 5 back to back years. It’s certainly been a large difference in the 2 teams over the past 4 years (especially taking over for K who truly was his rolling the ball out there at the end)

In related news, Cooper Flagg was the best college player in a long time, especially on the defensive end. This was a guy who NBA types were saying could be an NBA defensive player of the year.

I mean, it's really, really hard to evaluate a coach when he has that much talent. I don't think it's ever happened before that the top 2 vote getters for NBA rookie of the year came from the same college team, but that appears likely this year.

 

[Calheel]

What link?

The link where I said Hubert had a low basketball IQ. I’ve never said that and has always said the opposite. Hubert has a very knowledgeable basketball IQ.

The closest I’ve ever come is criticizing his non use of time outs at the end of first halves to preserve time - but most coaches make that mistake and it isn’t a basketball IQ thing.

 

[Enigma94]

Some of the logic I hear from our fans sounds like this:

Scheyer walked into a dream situation, so his excellent results don't mean he's a good coach. Hubert walked into a nearly impossible situation, so the fact that he's managed to do even halfway decent shows he's a good coach.

What is about their respective situations that mean that Scheyer has had it easier than everyone else, while Hubert has had it harder than everyone else?

I think Scheyer is a good coach. He's proven that over the past four years as the results speak for themselves. It's also true that he inherited a completely different situation than Davis did. Dook has been paying players more than anyone other than maybe Kentucky for the past decade plus. That has enabled them to get the top recruiting class every single year and load up on NBA all star talent. That combined with continuing to be at the top of the pecking order in terms of paying players now that it's legal gives him a head start on creating the most talented roster pretty much every year. Of course none of that has anything to do with Davis' struggles, as he's had enough talent to not shit the bed 2 out of 5 years, but it is a different situation that Davis has faced.

 

[sringwal]

Right, but at UNC, "above average, but not great" is completely unacceptable. So saying Hubert reminds you of Sendek does not really sound like you're saying you think Hubert can be an elite HC.

I don't think that we are going to find another coach as good as Roy and Dean over the course of the next decade, at least. I think that a "good enough" coach who is building a positive culture is the best shot that we have to survive the wild west era. I think this "tear down the system" and "fire Hubert crowd" is incredibly dangerous, will never be satiated, and we lead to mediocrity far faster than giving Hubert a shot, provided he can keep winning at the pace that we are seeing this year.

 

[Calheel]

Roy took over for a guy whose last three years were Final Four, S16, national champs. Except Roy started on probation with scholarship restrictions. Took him three years to get back to the Final Four.

BTW, I'm looking at Larry Brown's coaching tenure at Kansas. Did you know Popovich was his assistant coach? In fact, Pop took a leave of absence from his HEAD COACHing job to be a volunteer assistant under Larry. Finished his contract, became an actual paid assistant for Larry for a year and then followed Larry to the Spurs.

Popovich taking a year sabbatical to be a volunteer assistant is one of the craziest things I've seen recently.

Roy is a good choice. Dean Smith is another, although he had a much rougher start than Roy or Scheyer. Self would be another one.

 

[superrific]

Is THIS the problem?

"Carolina is not a pitstop university. It's not a pitstop program."

This was a choice Roy made. K and Cal decided to go all in on OADs. We had championships and near championships as a consequence. I don't know if Roy would have chosen differently if he predicted NIL and free transfers.

The risk with the OAD model was that it required hitting on most recruits. If you missed out on a recruit and ended up settling for a 4 star, that's not great if you've penciled him in to start. Or if you get the recruit, but he's not as good as advertised. That was always the issue for Cal and Duke. The NIL era cuts down on that risk considerably, because you can use the portal as a backup plan.

Think back to Dean's Fab Five class -- Montross, Rozier, Reese, Phelps and Sullivan. What did that core of players lack? Shooting (and Rozier after the first year). So we got Donald the next year, but Donald wasn't college ready. It was as a sophomore that he really turned it on. Imagine if the portal existed back then. Take that stud class, add a transfer shooter, and the 92 season probably would have been better than it was.

 

[uncjhodges]

In related news, Cooper Flagg was the best college player in a long time, especially on the defensive end. This was a guy who NBA types were saying could be an NBA defensive player of the year.

I mean, it's really, really hard to evaluate a coach when he has that much talent. I don't think it's ever happened before that the top 2 vote getters for NBA rookie of the year came from the same college team, but that appears likely this year.

Scheyer also completely choked last year, he’s certainly not infallible- i think he’s a good coach that consistently coaches defense really well and gets his team to play with effort (which is all i ever said)

 

[uncjhodges]

This was a choice Roy made. K and Cal decided to go all in on OADs. We had championships and near championships as a consequence. I don't know if Roy would have chosen differently if he predicted NIL and free transfers.

The risk with the OAD model was that it required hitting on most recruits. If you missed out on a recruit and ended up settling for a 4 star, that's not great if you've penciled him in to start. Or if you get the recruit, but he's not as good as advertised. That was always the issue for Cal and Duke. The NIL era cuts down on that risk considerably, because you can use the portal as a backup plan.

Think back to Dean's Fab Five class -- Montross, Rozier, Reese, Phelps and Sullivan. What did that core of players lack? Shooting (and Rozier after the first year). So we got Donald the next year, but Donald wasn't college ready. It was as a sophomore that he really turned it on. Imagine if the portal existed back then. Take that stud class, add a transfer shooter, and the 92 season probably would have been better than it was.

That 92 team did have a pretty good shooter on it

 

[rodoheel]

I don't think that we are going to find another coach as good as Roy and Dean over the course of the next decade, at least.

Why not?

I think that a "good enough" coach who is building a positive culture is the best shot that we have to survive the wild west era.

Why?

I think this "tear down the system" and "fire Hubert crowd" is incredibly dangerous, will never be satiated, and we lead to mediocrity far faster than giving Hubert a shot, provided he can keep winning at the pace that we are seeing this year.

Who is talking about "tearing down the system"? What does that even mean?

UNC is already in the land of mediocrity, IMO. If hoping Hubert can consistently produce fringe top 25 teams is what we're shooting for, I think we're already accepting mediocrity. I see very little danger of UNC falling materially below that threshold with a new hire if we are continuing to invest the amounts we did this year in players. But I'm willing to risk the unlikely chance that we fall to, say, Indiana level in the short term to try to get back to the level that programs like the ones I've mentioned are occupying, rather than not even trying to be on the same level as those programs.

 

[rodoheel]

I mean, it's really, really hard to evaluate a coach when he has that much talent.

So does this mean you have a hard time evaluating Dean Smith as a coach? Because nobody had more talent than Dean during his career, that's for dang sure. Does Dean get zero credit for 1982 because he had Jordan, Worthy, and Perkins?

Has everyone forgotten that getting the talent in the first place is a big part of the job of a college coach? Do you think Scheyer is just sitting on his couch while someone else assembles his roster for him?

 

[finesse]

Some of the logic I hear from our fans sounds like this:

Scheyer walked into a dream situation, so his excellent results don't mean he's a good coach. Hubert walked into a nearly impossible situation, so the fact that he's managed to do even halfway decent shows he's a good coach.

What is about their respective situations that mean that Scheyer has had it easier than everyone else, while Hubert has had it harder than everyone else?

Mainly the state of the programs. The two years before K left were better that the two years before Roy did both on the court and in recruiting.

My opinion that the timing of the NIL with the the extra Covid year hurt Hubert's efforts to make us his kind of team. One of the things I've noticed, some last year, and a lot more this year, is that he likes his team to take a lot better care of the ball than Roy did. I'm pretty sure we're on track to be considerably better than the average Roy team and maybe than any of his teams. Good as they were, Love, RJ and Cadeau weren't those guys. I've seen Cadeau has overall improved his numbers but he's also had a 5 and an 8 TO game this year, I believe. I get the feeling that's not near and dear to Hubert's heart. I digress, my point was the extra turmoil, the couple of down years, hold over players who didn't exactly fit all combined to both slow the transition and impede recruiting. You got to admit Roy didn't inspire immense confidence in the state of the program leaving under the conditions he did. I get what and why he did it that way but it's hard to convince me that you get the same buy in from everybody quitting like Roy as opposed to a year long victory tour with his heir apparent by his side culminating in a Final Four.

 

[sringwal]

State didn’t fire Sendek.

They pushed him out thee door.

 

[Calheel]

They pushed him out thee door.

Who is they? He wasn’t fired. He wasn’t asked to quit. He voluntarily left for the Arizona State job because he knew the State fans hated him.

 

[sringwal]

Why not?

Why?

Who is talking about "tearing down the system"? What does that even mean?

UNC is already in the land of mediocrity, IMO. If hoping Hubert can consistently produce fringe top 25 teams is what we're shooting for, I think we're already accepting mediocrity. I see very little danger of UNC falling materially below that threshold with a new hire if we are continuing to invest the amounts we did this year in players. But I'm willing to risk the unlikely chance that we fall to, say, Indiana level in the short term to try to get back to the level that programs like the ones I've mentioned are occupying, rather than not even trying to be on the same level as those programs.

And I think that we have been up for so long that we don't know what down feels like. Our football team is mediocre personified. We'd be chomping at the bit to have the level of football success that Hubert has had since taking over as basketball coach. I'm going to turn those "why not?" and "why's" back at you - why are you so confident that Hubert's successor will bring us back to the level of success that we saw under Roy and Dean?

 

[sringwal]

Who is they? He wasn’t fired. He wasn’t asked to quit. He voluntarily left for the Arizona State job because he knew the State fans hated him.

There was a great deal of internal pressure due to his record vs. Dook/Carolina.

 

[rodoheel]

Mainly the state of the programs. The two years before K left were better that the two years before Roy did both on the court and in recruiting.

My opinion that the timing of the NIL with the the extra Covid year hurt Hubert's efforts to make us his kind of team. One of the things I've noticed, some last year, and a lot more this year, is that he likes his team to take a lot better care of the ball than Roy did. I'm pretty sure we're on track to be considerably better than the average Roy team and maybe than any of his teams. Good as they were, Love, RJ and Cadeau weren't those guys. I've seen Cadeau has overall improved his numbers but he's also had a 5 and an 8 TO game this year, I believe. I get the feeling that's not near and dear to Hubert's heart. I digress, my point was the extra turmoil, the couple of down years, hold over players who didn't exactly fit all combined to both slow the transition and impede recruiting. You got to admit Roy didn't inspire immense confidence in the state of the program leaving under the conditions he did. I get what and why he did it that way but it's hard to convince me that you get the same buy in from everybody quitting like Roy as opposed to a year long victory tour with his heir apparent by his side culminating in a Final Four.

I think that's somewhat fair, except that Roy's last full recruiting class was a monster class (Love, RJ, Sharpe, Kessler, Bacot). Not like Hubert inherited a train wreck of a roster, even with Kessler and Sharpe moving on.

And Cadeau wasn't a holdover player. He was a Hubert recruit. Hubert owns that one.

I think it's fair to say that Duke's problem was going more smoothly at the time of the transfer. I just don't think it's fair to suggest hat Hubert had a uniquely uphill climb put before him. And during his time at UNC, the school had done everything it can to give him the resources he needs to be competitive wit h the best players. There's no long any excuse for not consistently having top-tier talent, IMO. Hubert is signing 5-stars left and right, and we need to hit on more of them the way we have with Wilson.

 

[Calheel]

There was a great deal of internal pressure due to his record vs. Dook/Carolina.

There is always pressure to beat Carolina (and to a lesser extent, Duke) in that job. But State didn’t force him out. He left because he didn’t feel wanted.

It is a like a girlfriend leaving because the boyfriend is cheating. It was the girlfriend’s decision, but it had everything to do with the boyfriend’s actions.

 

[rodoheel]

I'm going to turn those "why not?" and "why's" back at you - why are you so confident that Hubert's successor will bring us back to the level of success that we saw under Roy and Dean?

I'm not. Not should anyone be. I simply have very little confidence right now that Hubert is the guy to bring us back to high-level success. That confidence may be somewhat restored by how this season ends.

No coaching hire is ever a sure thing. But if you get to the point where you're reasonably confident that the current coach is not able to lead your team at the level you want, it's time to make a change. You can't just not try because trying might fail. The question for the UNC admin this offseason (because it doesn't really matter what any of us think) is whether they still think Hubert can be the guy.