Hubert Davis Catch-all

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heel79 said:
What I am saying is focus less on the 24-6 and more on the program' development and Hubert's as well.
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I think Hubert’s done a good job, especially post injury to CW (he typically seems to do his best with his back against the wall).
There’s definitley been some growth from Hubert, some of which is maddening like he’s now using some analytics more despite his reservations previously. I’m still not long term buying as we’re 27th in luck (2nd best in the top 50) and that’s the main difference between this year and last year. Would love for him to bring in a defensive coordinator from outside to help. Hopefully, with Tanner on board, we’ll be able to quickly and efficiently identify 2-3 high value targets in the portal at positions of need and follow up another more typical Carolina season

Edited to add: If Wes is let go and wants to come over, replace Lebo and instill some of his defensive principles (Cinci is 10th D Ef) and bring his big guy that would work too
 
dukeman92 said:
What is the end goal for the program? You're 24-6 with an undefeated home record and a win over your blood rival. I think HD has earned some leeway, no? At what point is he not "coaching for his job" every year?
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When there is more of an established track record that UNC is back on track to being an elite program. At the very least we need to be able to go consecutive seasons without even thinking about the bubble. Top 4 seeds in the NCAAT need to be achieved more often than not.
 
heel79 said:
What I am saying is focus less on the 24-6 and more on the program' development and Hubert's as well.
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It is impossible to talk about Hubert and the program's development without looking at a broader time period than one season. We've been pretty up and down during Hubert's tenure. I've liked a lot of what I've seen from Hubert and the team this season, but last season was a real struggle, and one season doesn't make a trend. As I said above, we need to see consecutive seasons with fairly consistent high-level play to start declaring that the program's issues are solved. We justifiably have a very high standard.
 
uncjhodges said:
I think Hubert’s done a good job, especially post injury to CW (he typically seems to do his best with his back against the wall).
There’s definitley been some growth from Hubert, some of which is maddening like he’s now using some analytics more despite his reservations previously. I’m still not long term buying as we’re 27th in luck (2nd best in the top 50) and that’s the main difference between this year and last year. Would love for him to bring in a defensive coordinator from outside to help. Hopefully, with Tanner on board, we’ll be able to quickly and efficiently identify 2-3 high value targets in the portal at positions of need and follow up another more typical Carolina season

Edited to add: If Wes is let go and wants to come over, replace Lebo and instill some of his defensive principles (Cinci is 10th D Ef) and bring his big guy that would work too
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If Wes was willing to join the staff as an assistant that would be a home run, IMO
 
Yeah, while this season has been fun, Davis still has to show he can stack consistent quality seasons up to the UNC standard. This season was needed for him to keep his opportunities going, but it wasn't enough (so far) to take him completely off the hot seat. I do think the over reliance on predictive advanced metrics is taking away from the enjoyment for some. We're still about 10 spots behind Louisville and still even behind friggin UK on Kenpom. That's a load of horse shit.
 
Enigma94 said:
Yeah, while this season has been fun, Davis still has to show he can stack consistent quality seasons up to the UNC standard. This season was needed for him to keep his opportunities going, but it wasn't enough (so far) to take him completely off the hot seat. I do think the over reliance on predictive advanced metrics is taking away from the enjoyment for some. We're still about 10 spots behind Louisville and still even behind friggin UK on Kenpom. That's a load of horse shit.
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I don't think it's just the metrics, it's the resume as a whole. We had an almost identical record in 2024 but we were a 1 seed; we're tracking as a 4/5 seed now because our overall resume (not just metrics) isn't as good, largely because our schedule has been weaker. That's the difference between a great season and a solid one, IMO.
 
Would some of you consider this POV? I understand what you are saying about inconsistency. I've made my arguments about what I feel about the coaching transition in the midst of disruption from a blip in our success, the aftermath of the pandemic and the unlimited transfers and general disorder in the game.

This year we rebuilt the entire team, barring Trimble. We hired a basketball manager. We started using advanced basketball metrics. On the whole, there has been measurable improvement in player development and coaching. Could we not agree to, at least until the middle of next season, set the sniper rifles aside and take a wait and see policy. I think there are a lot of good reasons to discount the weight some of you put on the past.
 
dukeman92 said:
What is the end goal for the program? You're 24-6 with an undefeated home record and a win over your blood rival. I think HD has earned some leeway, no? At what point is he not "coaching for his job" every year?
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I think I’d answer this question by putting it back to you…if HD’s career accomplishments were Jon Scheyer’s after 4.75 seasons, would you want him to return for season 6 and what would he need to do in season 6 where you’d be excited to have him return for season 7?
 
SnoopRob said:
I think I’d answer this question by putting it back to you…if HD’s career accomplishments were Jon Scheyer’s after 4.75 seasons, would you want him to return for season 6 and what would he need to do in season 6 where you’d be excited to have him return for season 7?
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Whose roster is he using?
 
rodoheel said:
I don't think it's just the metrics, it's the resume as a whole. We had an almost identical record in 2024 but we were a 1 seed; we're tracking as a 4/5 seed now because our overall resume (not just metrics) isn't as good, largely because our schedule has been weaker. That's the difference between a great season and a solid one, IMO.
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Certainly the regular season in 2024 was better than this year overall, but not 20 spots in the rankings better. I just think the advanced metrics suck up 90% of the oxygen and simply being based on math doesn’t mean they aren’t sometimes wrong.
 
finesse said:
Would some of you consider this POV? I understand what you are saying about inconsistency. I've made my arguments about what I feel about the coaching transition in the midst of disruption from a blip in our success, the aftermath of the pandemic and the unlimited transfers and general disorder in the game.

This year we rebuilt the entire team, barring Trimble. We hired a basketball manager. We started using advanced basketball metrics. On the whole, there has been measurable improvement in player development and coaching. Could we not agree to, at least until the middle of next season, set the sniper rifles aside and take a wait and see policy. I think there are a lot of good reasons to discount the weight some of you put on the past.
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I don't think anyone reasonable should be pounding the table to fire HD right now, unless things really collapse in the next couple weeks. But here are my main two points of response to what you say:

1. In terms of the circumstances - I'm not willing to give as big a pass for the upheaval of the modern era as you are. If this were a situation where no programs were able to sustain success due to the significant turnover and uncertainty across college sports, then I would be more sympathetic to your point. But other programs are managing to be successful year after year despite all of those same factors, and we should have the expectation that UNC can do it too. As I've said before, while this season has been good, the UNC program and fan base does (and should) have greater expectations than celebrating a year where we get a 4/5 seed as an unqualified success.

2. You mention some positive signs about how HD is coaching and running the program this year. I agree those are positive signs. But as I've said multiple times, one year doesn't make a trend. One year of good signs - albeit one where we are still probably a 4/5 seed, so not a typical great UNC season - is not sufficient to discount the past. Especially when the whole issue throughout HD's tenure has been sustaining year-to-year consistency.
 
SnoopRob said:
I think I’d answer this question by putting it back to you…if HD’s career accomplishments were Jon Scheyer’s after 4.75 seasons, would you want him to return for season 6 and what would he need to do in season 6 where you’d be excited to have him return for season 7?
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I don't think that's a fair comparison.
 
Enigma94 said:
Certainly the regular season in 2024 was better than this year overall, but not 20 spots in the rankings better. I just think the advanced metrics suck up 90% of the oxygen and simply being based on math doesn’t mean they aren’t sometimes wrong.
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I largely agree about advanced metrics sucking up the oxygen sometimes, but my personal observation is that at least half of that oxygen is coming from the people who constantly complain about them. On IC, for example, the large majority of metrics threads are started by people complaining about the NET or KenPom, many of whom fundamentally misunderstand what the metrics are and are trying to measure (and completely ignore anyone who tries to educate them on that point).

Everyone should recognize that the metrics are far from perfect. Any process of trying to measure and rank college basketball teams is largely impossible, because there are so many teams and almost all of them play the majority of their games against a tiny fraction of the other DI teams so trying to truly measure all of them against each other in an objective way is a fool's errand. But I do still believe that the efficiency metrics do a better job of approximating a comprehensive measure of team quality than any other form of measurement I've seen. Everyone should keep in mind, though, that the metrics aren't trying to measure a team's NCAAT resume, so they should never be thought of as a presumptive guide to seeding (and I think it's pretty clear the committee doesn't use them that way).
 
finesse said:
Would some of you consider this POV? I understand what you are saying about inconsistency. I've made my arguments about what I feel about the coaching transition in the midst of disruption from a blip in our success, the aftermath of the pandemic and the unlimited transfers and general disorder in the game.

This year we rebuilt the entire team, barring Trimble. We hired a basketball manager. We started using advanced basketball metrics. On the whole, there has been measurable improvement in player development and coaching. Could we not agree to, at least until the middle of next season, set the sniper rifles aside and take a wait and see policy. I think there are a lot of good reasons to discount the weight some of you put on the past.
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Given your first paragraph, the fact that hiring a general manager and using analytics took til year 5 is a huge strike against him imo
 
rodoheel said:
I largely agree about advanced metrics sucking up the oxygen sometimes, but my personal observation is that at least half of that oxygen is coming from the people who constantly complain about them. On IC, for example, the large majority of metrics threads are started by people complaining about the NET or KenPom, many of whom fundamentally misunderstand what the metrics are and are trying to measure (and completely ignore anyone who tries to educate them on that point).

Everyone should recognize that the metrics are far from perfect. Any process of trying to measure and rank college basketball teams is largely impossible, because there are so many teams and almost all of them play the majority of their games against a tiny fraction of the other DI teams so trying to truly measure all of them against each other in an objective way is a fool's errand. But I do still believe that the efficiency metrics do a better job of approximating a comprehensive measure of team quality than any other form of measurement I've seen. Everyone should keep in mind, though, that the metrics aren't trying to measure a team's NCAAT resume, so they should never be thought of as a presumptive guide to seeding (and I think it's pretty clear the committee doesn't use them that way).
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I mostly agree with this but I think the metric lovers, for lack of a better term, will use those metrics to say things like we are a fringe top 30 team and that’s not good enough when imo this season is measurably better than that. The seeding process does appear to take that into account, having us as a 4/5 seed, which is more in line with a top 15ish kind of team, which is where I see us this year. I mean I keep harping on Louisville but them being ten spots ahead of us is asinine.
 
rodoheel said:
I will say what I said earlier in the thread: my three rough barometers before the season were top 4 NCAAT seed, top 3 ACC seed, and Sweet 16, and I wanted us to accomplish 2 out of the 3 to feel confident in HD moving forward. It appears that we're going to come very close on the first two, and obviously the third remains TBD.

I'm still not confident in HD being the guy to get us back to being an elite program, but no need to lay out the arguments re-hashed earlier in the thread. If we can lock up an ACC double-bye and get an NCAAT 5 seed or better, which looks pretty likely, I would tend to agree with those who say HD isn't getting fired no matter what any of us think. But it's going to put us back in a similar position next year, IMO, when HD is arguably again coaching for his job, and faces the tough task of replacing Wilson, Veesaar, and Trimble.

It would have made things simpler if we were substantially better or substantially worse. But I'm certainly never going to cheer for us to be worse just to make our choice simpler.
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I don't see us getting the double bye. I don't believe Miami loses 2 or Clem's son loses to GT. Guess we have to beat dook again.

Win 2 or more in the ACC, then a top 4 seed and a second weekend or better in the NCAA tournament and this is an objectively good season. The next step is consistent with winning these coming years, which will be determined by how we continue to adapt and build our team. Missing at needed positions and ending up with unbalanced teams, if it continues, will be a big concern.

It looks like we could be in good shape next year with guards, but we don't know yet how our bus will pan out.

Could you imaging a situation where Veeser and Wilson both came back? We would be contenders.
 
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