—> ICE / Immigration / Chaos after another shooting in Minnesota

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akillesheel said:
I think it is at least as likely that Dems lose on slogans like this because of their inability to commit to them as a part as it is that they are genuinely unpopular. whether it is defunding the police, transgender rights, medicare for all, or any other of the host of progressive legislation/policy that has majority support among the people of this country when it's not voting time and when it's presented to them by people who actually understand the stakes, the story continues to be that highly visible Dems try to soften or avoid the language and so end up looking weak-willed to their ostensible supporters, all while chasing a fantasy of converting centrists or republicans that simply isn't going to come true.

ICE is killing Americans. If Dems want to make hay on it, their response should meet the urgency of that situation. Anything less and they'll continue to look like a paper-thin opposition party that's not worth voting for.
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So if people don't like the slogan when they are voting, the better move is to double down and commit to it harder? Are you trying to get Trump elected? Here's what people hear when you say "Abolish ICE": open borders. And we just lost an election in large part because Pubs made "open borders" bullshit an accusation that stuck.

The time to say "abolish ICE" full throatedly is when we have the power to actually do something about it. And if you keep saying it now, we will never have the opportunity to do anything about it.

Plus, abolishing ICE makes no sense. The deportation function has to be exercised somewhere. I don't like it, because I generally do not think "illegal aliens" are bad for the country at all. Exporting human capital after they have been trained and are building a job history is terrible economic policy. However, Americans overwhelmingly want to deport criminal illegal aliens and if you tell them you want to get rid of the function, you will lose their support. It's as simple as that.

Besides, every country in the West has a "nicer version of the stasi." They are called intelligence agencies. And yes, making them nice is the whole point. Otherwise, Republicans will get into office, and put in the bad version if we haven"t come up with something better.
 
nycfan said:
IMG_3837.jpeg

www.theguardian.com

Trump administration says detaining college student trying to surprise family was a ‘mistake’

Any Lucía López Belloza was detained at Boston’s airport in November and flown to Honduras two days later
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

“The Trump administration apologized in court for a “mistake” in the deportation of a Massachusetts college student who was detained trying to fly home to surprise her family in Texas for Thanksgiving.

But the administration still argued that the federal government error should not affect her immigration case.

Any Lucía López Belloza, a 19-year-old freshman at Babson College in Wellesley, 15 miles west of Boston, was detained at the city’s airport on 20 November and flown to Honduras two days later. Her sudden removal came despite an emergency court order on 21 November directing the government to keep her in Massachusetts or elsewhere in the United States for at least 72 hours for legal processes.

… López Belloza, whose family emigrated from Honduras to the US in 2014 when she was seven, is currently staying with grandparents and studying remotely. …In early December, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers reportedly turned up at her parents’ home in Austin, Texas and behaved aggressively towards the family but left without taking further action.

At a federal court hearing on Tuesday of this week in Boston, the government argued the court lacks jurisdiction in the case because lawyers for López Belloza filed their action several hours after she was taken to Texas on the way out of the US in November. But the government also acknowledged it violated the judge’s order.…”
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There was no error. These people are evil.
 

dcphx said:
She was alive for 20 minutes. There is a Level 1 Trauma Center ~8 minutes away. The paramedics were delayed 15 minutes by ICE vehicles.

Obviously there is no guarantee that she would have survived without the delay caused by ICE but she would have had a chance.
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makes refusal to let the doctor who offered assistance help her look a LOT worse
 
dcphx said:
She was alive for 20 minutes. There is a Level 1 Trauma Center ~8 minutes away. The paramedics were delayed 15 minutes by ICE vehicles.

Obviously there is no guarantee that she would have survived without the delay caused by ICE but she would have had a chance.
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From the article. I am not sure the time between the shooting and the first 911 calls

The calls to 911 began at 9:38 a.m. on Jan. 7, shortly after an Immigration and Customs and Enforcement officer fired a gun into Ms. Good’s maroon Honda Pilot as observers and protesters confronted federal agents. The frantic calls persisted for about an hour.
...
When paramedics arrived at 9:42 a.m., Ms. Good was in the driver’s seat, unresponsive, with blood on her face and torso, the records say. After they removed her from the vehicle, she was not breathing and had an irregular pulse.

She had two apparent gunshot wounds on the right side of her chest, another on her left forearm and a possible fourth on the left side of her head. Blood was flowing from her left ear, and her pupils were dilated, the Fire Department’s report said.

In an ambulance en route to the hospital, medics performed CPR on Ms. Good. About 10:30 a.m., resuscitation efforts were stopped.
 
superrific said:
So if people don't like the slogan when they are voting, the better move is to double down and commit to it harder? Are you trying to get Trump elected? Here's what people hear when you say "Abolish ICE": open borders. And we just lost an election in large part because Pubs made "open borders" bullshit an accusation that stuck.

The time to say "abolish ICE" full throatedly is when we have the power to actually do something about it. And if you keep saying it now, we will never have the opportunity to do anything about it.

Plus, abolishing ICE makes no sense. The deportation function has to be exercised somewhere. I don't like it, because I generally do not think "illegal aliens" are bad for the country at all. Exporting human capital after they have been trained and are building a job history is terrible economic policy. However, Americans overwhelmingly want to deport criminal illegal aliens and if you tell them you want to get rid of the function, you will lose their support. It's as simple as that.

Besides, every country in the West has a "nicer version of the stasi." They are called intelligence agencies. And yes, making them nice is the whole point. Otherwise, Republicans will get into office, and put in the bad version if we haven"t come up with something better.
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Trump's "open borders" bullshit stuck exactly because of what I'm saying - Kamala trying to run to Trump's right on immigration by saying she supported a restrictive immigration bill instead of actually fighting the scaremongering, and in doing so implicitly accepting that "open borders" are a problem to be solved. When both sides are acceding this point, of course voters were going to think that Trump's "build a wall" ass was going to solve that problem better. To that point, I'm not "trying to get Trump elected." That's already happened in large part because of the aforementioned pussyfooted rhetoric.

The rest of your comment is a kind of clumsy amalgam of rhetorical and policy disagreement - I'm trying to stay strictly on the side of rhetoric, so I'll say this - It should be very easy to say that deportations happened before ICE, within most voters' lifetimes, and they will continue to happen after it. It should also be easy for a politician to say that they would rather 100 undocumented people, who are still their constituents, go un-deported than a single one of their constituents get shot in the face by the state for doing nothing wrong. And I cannot imagine that "make the Nazi police nicer" is a winning message for anybody who thinks Nazis were, well, bad, even if you think it's an accurate description of intelligence agencies.
 
uncsig said:
Have heard he doesn't like them being referred to as Kavanagh Stops. Well, maybe he shouldn't have fucking written that in his bullshit opinion!!
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It was among the dumbest things I’ve seen written in a SCOTUS opinion, and I’ve seen a lot of stupid shit from SCOTUS in recent years.
 
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