—> ICE / Immigration / Chaos after ICE kills 37 y/o man

[nycfan]

Again, this must not be forgotten/lost:

 

[superrific]

Yes, some voters are manipulated by right-wing media. That’s always been true. That doesn’t mean every slogan or demand is equally risky.

“Defund/abolish the police” was a mistake precisely because police have deep social capital and are widely seen, rightly or wrongly, as a public safety service. ICE doesn’t have that. As I said, ICE is a relatively new, federal interior enforcement agency with little legitimacy and a reputation for abuse. The analogy just doesn’t hold.

IMO, the question isn’t whether the right will try to distort “abolish ICE,” because they’ll distort anything. It’s whether we lose more voters by saying something clearly about an institution people already distrust, or by continuing to hedge and sanitize our own conclusions. From what I’ve seen, the bigger loss comes from the hedging.

Replace does all the work of Abolish and doesn't have any baggage.

I don't think you fully appreciate how many people are convinced that leftists are just waiting for an opportunity to empty the jails and let chaos reign. Willie Horton ad worked because it was racist, but even more that it played into people's fears about liberals and criminal justice. It is ridiculous but the stereotype has existed and continues to thrive.

My mother, for instance, is generally GOP but hates Trump AND didn't vote for him. She couldn't vote for Kamala or Biden either, but at least she didn't vote. and she's thinking about voting blue this year. But she's been afraid of soft-on-crime liberals for 50 years and if liberals start saying Abolish ICE , it will scare her

 

[nycfan]

Meanwhile, in other ICE incompetence (or malfeasance? Would they rather have “credit” for giving a guy $1,000 to self-deport than a DOJ conviction of the same guy in a huge jewel heist?):

 

[nycfan]

 

[Paine]

Replace does all the work of Abolish and doesn't have any baggage.

I don't think you fully appreciate how many people are convinced that leftists are just waiting for an opportunity to empty the jails and let chaos reign. Willie Horton ad worked because it was racist, but even more that it played into people's fears about liberals and criminal justice. It is ridiculous but the stereotype has existed and continues to thrive.

My mother, for instance, is generally GOP but hates Trump AND didn't vote for him. She couldn't vote for Kamala or Biden either, but at least she didn't vote. and she's thinking about voting blue this year. But she's been afraid of soft-on-crime liberals for 50 years and if liberals start saying Abolish ICE , it will scare her

I fully understand that fear. But “replace” only works if people trust that it actually means something, and a lot of voters don’t anymore. They hear “replace” and assume it’s the same agency with a new name, because that’s usually how it goes.

This isn’t just an activist position anymore. Even swing-district Democrats are starting to call for abolition, defunding, and impeachment. The dam is breaking. The idea that this language is inherently untouchable is already being overtaken by current events. When MTG is distancing herself from ICE’s actions, you know something has shifted.

 

[nycfan]

 

[nycfan]

 

[nycfan]

 

[nycfan]

 

[CarolinaFever]

The hypocrisy is just stupid at this point.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

What will it take for those who haven’t yet called for ICE to be abolished to get on board? How many Americans executed in the street will it take? This rogue agency is younger than me. It is not a fixture of American life. It is a creature of the Iraq War natsec state. DoJ and a reconstituted INS should handle these duties, not a paramilitary goon squad.

I think it will take more murders.

 

[MendotoManteo]

Late to the thread, and someone else may have already said it. But if you follow this thing, it's like reading Dictatorship 101.

You pick on the most vulnerable first. And go from there.

So they picked on foreigners and black/brown people.

Then they "bagged" them a white woman US citizen. Pardon my language, but I think the "Fucking bitch!" commentary from our ICE "hero" warrants the "bagged" comment.

And now they've got them a white man who had legal carry permit.

These bastards are getting pretty bold. I believe yesterday was a turning point.

 

[superrific]

I fully understand that fear. But “replace” only works if people trust that it actually means something, and a lot of voters don’t anymore. They hear “replace” and assume it’s the same agency with a new name, because that’s usually how it goes.

This isn’t just an activist position anymore. Even swing-district Democrats are starting to call for abolition, defunding, and impeachment. The dam is breaking. The idea that this language is inherently untouchable is already being overtaken by current events. When MTG is distancing herself from ICE’s actions, you know something has shifted.

I'm all for impeachment. Impeach Noem is a great idea to talk about.

My fear is that we have a slam dunk midterm election being set up now. There are only a few ways to blow it, so I'd like to stay away from any of them.

Let's use a football analogy. You're up by 4, other team has the ball at their 20, 1:45 left. Let's agree that prevent defense is a bad choice -- too passive, gives up big plays anyway. Prevent defense = "Reform.." But you also don't want to blitz eight; it might work, but you might also just lose. Abolish = blitz eight. Replace is the standard defensive package. That's my view at least.

 

[lightbluenc]

If the next democratic president created and deputized a federal force of only liberals that went door to door confiscating firearms, would the republican right protest that? Would they protest with firearms? Would they refuse or obey those orders even if against the constitution like ice is currently doing?

 

[Geisterfahrer]

A database of protesters, brought to you by Palantir.

 

[Paine]

I'm all for impeachment. Impeach Noem is a great idea to talk about.

My fear is that we have a slam dunk midterm election being set up now. There are only a few ways to blow it, so I'd like to stay away from any of them.

Let's use a football analogy. You're up by 4, other team has the ball at their 20, 1:45 left. Let's agree that prevent defense is a bad choice -- too passive, gives up big plays anyway. Prevent defense = "Reform.." But you also don't want to blitz eight; it might work, but you might also just lose. Abolish = blitz eight. Replace is the standard defensive package. That's my view at least.

Moral clarity can lock in support and build trust. In politics, “standard defense” doesn’t just suppress risk, it also suppresses energy. And energy matters because turnout isn’t fixed.

And I don’t think we’re “up 4.” Far from it. Acting like we are is how you let the other team hang around. To use the other side of the ball as an analogy: you don’t sit back and hope the clock runs out, you put your foot on their throats, drive the ball down the field, and score again.

 

[ZenMode]

Not official but available video indicates yes

I agree. It makes no sense that an ice agent, who pulled his gun during a struggle with an arm suspect, would walk away from that struggle. I was just wondering if anything official had been released.

 

[sringwal]

If the next democratic president created and deputized a federal force of only liberals that went door to door confiscating firearms, would the republican right protest that? Would they protest with firearms? Would they refuse or obey those orders even if against the constitution like ice is currently doing?

Watching the party that refused to wear masks during the pandemic asking others to “just follow orders” is rich.

 

[nycfan]

I agree. It makes no sense that an ice agent, who pulled his gun during a struggle with an arm suspect, would walk away from that struggle. I was just wondering if anything official had been released.

Not yet — in a “normal” investigation, it would be pretty early for that, but in this mess, what qualifies as “official” when DHS is shown to be lying repeatedly and brazenly and is running the “official” federal investigation and refusing to cooperate with a state investigation? I don’t know.

 

[LeoBloom]

The replies to a ton of the posts are pretty discouraging— how many people are gleeful about ICE killings and claim the immigrants and American citizens who resist deserve their fate.

Storm the Capitol on behalf of Trump and his lies over the election and you are a hero and should get compensation. Peacefully protest ICE and you should be executed in the street.