—> ICE / Immigration / Federal agents shoot two people in Portland

[altmin]

 

[Zoo_View]

I disagree. ICE is armed. All of them.

Not only armed, but most are masked AND have the full weight and power of the Trump Administration behind them.

 

[BlueSmoke]

I think I have formed my opinion on this. Its was a multiple shot execution done at point blank range, even aimed at her head. No call for that. If she perhaps did something wrong then arrest her even if the arrest is after you get her plate number. Then prove your case in a court of law.

 

[4thgenheel]

This is way more rhetorical than actually inquisitive, but how in the world did we societally become so casually cruel? How did the social contract completely evaporate so easily? I know that some may believe that right wingers and conservatives have always been like what we are currently seeing in the aftermath of this tragedy in Minneapolis, but I don’t believe that to be actually true. I believe this is a new phenomenon. Ten years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, etc. most of the country, conservatives and liberals alike, would have been unified in their disgust and revulsion for 1. federal agents performing such a ghastly public summary execution of a soccer Mom in a minivan in broad daylight in the middle of the street, 2. with the president and the vice president of the United States gleefully mocking and celebrating it.

the maga movement has given people freer license to be their ugliest, cruelest selves but i think that a lot of this seemingly new vitriol was probably bubbling under the surface all along.

i believe it was in this very thread yesterday when someone said, and i'm paraphrasing here, "i can't believe that 30% of the country is not only fine with but cheerleading this kind of stuff" and someone else replied "30% of the country has always been more than fine with this kind of thing, look at how many people were involved in the kkk and jim crow..."

iow, i think a lot of this ugliness has been present underneath the surface all along (just ask black folx) but the decent society we were building demanded that folks hide and temper their nastiness but now that 1 of our 2 major political parties openly embraces hate and indecency, the racists and bigots have all pulled off (or put back on!) their masks.

 

[dukeman92]

 

[sringwal]

He doesn't have to even be the one to pull the trigger,

 

[CFordUNC]

 

[superrific]

Serious question that I honestly don't know the answer to: does ICE have legal authority to detain/arrest people for "obstructing justice" or interfering with their operations or whatever? Like, I'm pretty sure that if I obstruct a postal worker in trying to deliver mail, the postal worker can't pull out a gun an detain or arrest me for that; other law enforcement officials would have to be called in to do that. So, how does that apply to ICE? Do they have full authority to enforce all federal law, including non-immigration offenses, whether by arrest, detention, or otherwise? Or only a specifically enumerated set of laws? And if the letter, does the scope of that authority include these sorts of detentions/arrests for things that they would claim are related to the exercise of their duties?

8 USC 1357 lays out the powers of immigration officers. You can read it. It very plainly gives ICE authority over immigration and only immigration. Except for (a)(5):

"Any officer or employee of the Service authorized under regulations prescribed by the Attorney General shall have power without warrant- . . . "
(5) to make arrests-

(A) for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer's or employee's presence, or

(B) for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony,

So opening the car door is expressly forbidden (the rest of the statute makes clear that it has authority only over immigration offenses). There is no general obstruction statute. A person has to be obstructing in a particular way, which is governed by federal law. It does not include mere non-cooperation or blocking a vehicle.

ICE absolutely exceeded their jurisdiction, and that's before we even get to the constitutional analysis (i.e. no police officer can just barge into a vehicle.)

 

[4thgenheel]

8 USC 1357 lays out the powers of immigration officers. You can read it. It very plainly gives ICE authority over immigration and only immigration. Except for (a)(5):

"Any officer or employee of the Service authorized under regulations prescribed by the Attorney General shall have power without warrant- . . . "
(5) to make arrests-

(A) for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer's or employee's presence, or

(B) for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony,

So opening the car door is expressly forbidden (the rest of the statute makes clear that it has authority only over immigration offenses). There is no general obstruction statute. A person has to be obstructing in a particular way, which is governed by federal law. It does not include mere non-cooperation or blocking a vehicle.

ICE absolutely exceeded their jurisdiction, and that's before we even get to the constitutional analysis (i.e. no police officer can just barge into a vehicle.)

thanks, super.

 

[superrific]

This is way more rhetorical than actually inquisitive, but how in the world did we societally become so casually cruel? How did the social contract completely evaporate so easily? I know that some may believe that right wingers and conservatives have always been like what we are currently seeing in the aftermath of this tragedy in Minneapolis, but I don’t believe that to be actually true. I believe this is a new phenomenon. Ten years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, etc. most of the country, conservatives and liberals alike, would have been unified in their disgust and revulsion for 1. federal agents performing such a ghastly public summary execution of a soccer Mom in a minivan in broad daylight in the middle of the street, 2. with the president and the vice president of the United States gleefully mocking and celebrating it.

Start a new thread and I have some ideas. Some conventional, some unconventional. As for the latter, think about this for a minute: football broadcasts. It's really amazing how much military rhetoric dominates football commentary. Point of attack. Blow up the play. etc. Those things mean nothing on their own, but they frame discourse. If you're looking for an explanation of a societal drift toward cruelty, those subtle psychological factors definitely play a role.

And people might not like this idea, but I absolutely think video games play a role. Not the games themselves -- it's the sociality. It used to be playing against a computer, and the threat was violent imagery. Now, games are literally about sitting around with your friends (teammates) and trying to kill the other players.

 

[HandsonFire]

I think they were going to try to detain her or arrest her for blocking the street or obstructing justice or whatever. The guy walking out to the car was yelling to her to shut the car off. Then the other guy shot her when she started pulling away.

And I am also a us citizen, a white guy in a left leaning city and I'm going to comply. Every single time. I doubt that woman thought that running away was going to get her killed but things can turn bad really fast with these under trained yahoo's or even professional police.

Sorting all that out later is what the courts are for. Getting rid of the guys running the show is what the ballot box is for. Nonviolent protests can also be effective, which is what most of these folks are doing.

This is my general rule for interaction with law enforcement. Bad things happen when you are around them. So I do everything possible to make any interaction as quick and safe as possible. Comply and figure it out later. Can’t do shit if I’m dead.

 

[superrific]

thanks, super.

Thank ChatGPT too. I never take what it says at face value, but if you ask it to answer a legal question with a disclaimer like, "tell me the actual law about [insert question]" it gives pretty good responses. I double check them by reading statutes and the cases it cites (which it will if you ask it). It makes for a good paralegal/young associate though.

 

[superrific]

That case was different as that woman very much did hit the officer and I believe he was on the hood of her car when he fired.

This is a good example of why you should maybe tone down your outrage at the arrests of officers like in the Brianna Taylor shooting. We know you as a total law enforcement officer apologist. If you don't want to be that, then maybe express your views with nuance. You have literally said before that it's OK to shoot blindly into an apartment. That is obviously not true, and it inhibits your credibility.

I'm glad you are on the right side on this issue. Maybe be a little less pre-judgmental in other situations, and maybe take account of other viewpoints (especially lawyers who know the nuances) before digging in your heels.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

This is a good example of why you should maybe tone down your outrage at the arrests of officers like in the Brianna Taylor shooting. We know you as a total law enforcement officer apologist. If you don't want to be that, then maybe express your views with nuance. You have literally said before that it's OK to shoot blindly into an apartment. That is obviously not true, and it inhibits your credibility.

I'm glad you are on the right side on this issue. Maybe be a little less pre-judgmental in other situations, and maybe take account of other viewpoints (especially lawyers who know the nuances) before digging in your heels.

I was right about Breonna Taylor and I was right about 99% of the other cases that I caught flack for on the previous board.

 

[superrific]

"repelling a foreign invasion" by blowing the head off of a soccer mom in an SUV full of stuffed animal toys.

Jesus Goddamn fucking Christ.

I'm telling you: they will never change until stuff like this is visited upon them. I don't want to kill anyone, but there are places in this country that should not have any political power until they reform.

And the next Democratic president needs to cut all money to red states, period. Like Trump is doing. Don't worry about the law. Just do it until those states starve. And then don't do it. And when they are about to be bankrupt, force them to withdraw from the union to get their money.

 

[superrific]

I was right about Breonna Taylor and I was right about 99% of the other cases that I caught flack for on the previous board.

You are absolutely 100% wrong about Breanna Taylor and it's not even close. At all. And I see you are again trying to put yourself in the position of legal authority despite having no training or knowledge. I'm not going to talk about this now because it would be a diversion from the present situation, but if you don't want people pulling up your previous statements to show your hypocrisy, maybe you should stop leaving a trail.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

You are absolutely 100% wrong about Breanna Taylor and it's not even close. At all. And I see you are again trying to put yourself in the position of legal authority despite having no training or knowledge. I'm not going to talk about this now because it would be a diversion from the present situation, but if you don't want people pulling up your previous statements to show your hypocrisy, maybe you should stop leaving a trail.

Go back to the previous board and time and time again you had posters ready to riot over the narratives regarding a police shooting that they fell for hook line and sinker. I’d say “let’s wait for the video and facts to come out before we rush to judgment” and time and time again the facts and the videos that came out completely debunked the narratives that had people up in arms. I’m not a police apologist…I’m a truth apologist.

 

[superrific]

I think they were going to try to detain her or arrest her for blocking the street or obstructing justice or whatever. The guy walking out to the car was yelling to her to shut the car off. Then the other guy shot her when she started pulling away.

And I am also a us citizen, a white guy in a left leaning city and I'm going to comply. Every single time. I doubt that woman thought that running away was going to get her killed but things can turn bad really fast with these under trained yahoo's or even professional police.

Sorting all that out later is what the courts are for. Getting rid of the guys running the show is what the ballot box is for. Nonviolent protests can also be effective, which is what most of these folks are doing.

1. They have no jurisdiction over her at all. None.

2. You can make your own choices. If you want to comply, I won't tell you you're wrong. Just don't expect your position to be normative. You would have complied and this woman didn't. Fine. But she was not wrong to assert her rights.

 

[superrific]

Go back to the previous board and time and time again you had posters ready to riot over the narratives regarding a police shooting that they fell for hook line and sinker. I’d say “let’s wait for the video and facts to come out before we rush to judgment” and time and time again the facts and the videos that came out completely debunked the narratives that had people up in arms. I’m not a police apologist…I’m a truth apologist.

That's fine. Waiting for the video and the facts to come out before rushing to judgment is usually a good idea (unless there is good reason to think that the videos and facts will be bullshit). And yes, that is a valuable service to the board.

That's different from saying officers should be able to shoot up an apartment blindly.

 

[CFordUNC]