—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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nycfan said:
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www.nytimes.com

Trump Holds 2-Hour Meeting With Noem Amid Backlash to Minneapolis Shooting

The meeting is a sign that the president is concerned about the fallout from the killing of Alex Pretti, who was shot by immigration agents.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

“…The meeting came after Ms. Noem requested to see the president, the people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a private meeting.

Mr. Trump did not suggest during the meeting that either Ms. Noem’s or Mr. Lewandowski’s jobs were at risk, the people said. But it was the latest sign the president is concerned about the bipartisan criticism of the administration’s response to the killing of Alex Pretti, who was shot at roughly 10 times by immigration agents on Saturday after he was apparently filming them with his phone camera.

… Stephen Miller, a top aide to Mr. Trump who oversees the administration’s immigration strategy, was not part of the meeting.…”
 
ZenMode said:
In principle, yes those were all good interventions. In all those situations, at least where laws are being broken, those involved wouldn't be surprised if they were arrested if caught.

I'm thinking of the visibly concerning events where things were unfolding slowly enough that someone could intervene. George Floyd and Rodney King.

In both cases, those watching were likely concerned and would like to do something. In both cases, no, I would not support citizens intervening. We can't live in a country where citizens could legally, for example, pull police off of George Floyd or try to get between police and Rodney King.

That would be a recipe for the breakdown of law and order.
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I am so very sorry I thought you had joined reality. Good fucking God. We dont have law and order at all if we cant intervene when law enforcement are the criminals!!
 
Callatoroy said:
Was the police officer murdering her? It isn't a hard concept to grasp without trying to use extreme anecdotes. Don't get in the middle of it. You don't know what is happening and why. Stay away, protest, and record. The groups orchestrating these protests want people to get killed / maimed as much as the left says ice wants to shoot people.
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This last sentence is a criminally stupid fucking take. ICE agents (at least some of them) clearly do want to shoot people. They are doing so at rates that far exceed any rational conclusion otherwise. They are doing so when there is no reasonable fear for their own lives. And they are doing so without the smallest hint of regret that the employment of such force was used. Those folks 100% want to be shooting people.
 
nycfan said:
www.nytimes.com

Trump Holds 2-Hour Meeting With Noem Amid Backlash to Minneapolis Shooting

The meeting is a sign that the president is concerned about the fallout from the killing of Alex Pretti, who was shot by immigration agents.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

“…The meeting came after Ms. Noem requested to see the president, the people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a private meeting.

Mr. Trump did not suggest during the meeting that either Ms. Noem’s or Mr. Lewandowski’s jobs were at risk, the people said. But it was the latest sign the president is concerned about the bipartisan criticism of the administration’s response to the killing of Alex Pretti, who was shot at roughly 10 times by immigration agents on Saturday after he was apparently filming them with his phone camera.

… Stephen Miller, a top aide to Mr. Trump who oversees the administration’s immigration strategy, was not part of the meeting.…”
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What the hell does Donald Trump talk about with anyone for two hours?
 
Callatoroy said:
lol at these ridiculous hypothetical situations that aren't relevent. How many would instruct their kids to go intervene in these ice raids? My guess is not many. And if you wouldn't tell your kid to get in the middle of it you shouldn't hope or expect anyone else to. It's just not good and the implications of intervening isn't to complicated to understand if you are applying good faith. The real rub is that the extreme left doesn't want anyone in these sanctuary states deported. Doesn't matter if they had a criminal record or not. The left wants everyone here illegally to be allowed to stay. Full stop.

I also see no blame placed on the gov. or mayor for their role in this other than in right wing media. They have played a huge role so far but I'm just not seeing anyone show any objectivity because my guess is they don't believe in our immigration laws and fully support subverting them. Otherwise there would be calls coming from the left that were similar to Pence's statement.
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Yes again you completely mischaracterize what "the left" want regarding immigration. I do not know a single person outraged by this mess who has any objection at all to the removal and deportation of anyone with any sort of serious criminal conviction.
 
ZenMode said:
In a vacuum, yes I would attempt to intervene. In reality, I have two kids that rely on me and I would hesitate to intervene for a fear of being killed, even if I was 100% right and what I was doing.
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Then youd better hope there are better people than you around when it is your kids being brutalized by police.
 
Rock said:
What the hell does Donald Trump talk about with anyone for two hours?
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The big beautiful ballroom, his 2020 election win that was stolen from him, how many times he’s aced basic cognitive tests, the 11 wars he’s stopped, Greenland, the obliteration of Iran’s nuclear program.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Yes again you completely mischaracterize what "the left" want regarding immigration. I do not know a single person outraged by this mess who has any objection at all to the removal and deportation of anyone with any sort of serious criminal conviction.
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Neither does he, but he has made that idiotic statement several times. Each time he has been told that it isn’t true, but he soldiers on with these ridiculous takes. Why? Because he has to defend the indefensible, so he conjures up what “the left” believes so he can sleep better at night knowing he supports an authoritarian regime.
 
Rock said:
What the hell does Donald Trump talk about with anyone for two hours?
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he probably spent 119 minutes of it yelling at her for how bad he is looking through all this, despite that she was probably just doing as he said. That's what abusive narcissists do.
 


As diplomatic security in Italy. That is pretty weird. Could just be a result of ICE having a nearly infinite budget, could be a sleazy way to hand out a fringe benefit to certain ICE agents (whoever arrests the most people gets an all expense paid trip to Italy!).
 
nycfan said:


As diplomatic security in Italy. That is pretty weird. Could just be a result of ICE having a nearly infinite budget, could be a sleazy way to hand out a fringe benefit to certain ICE agents (whoever arrests the most people gets an all expense paid trip to Italy!).
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In any event, it is causing a bit of a diplomatic kerfluffle:

“… Milan Mayor Giuseppe Sala said that ICE would not be welcome in his city, which is hosting most ice sports during the Feb. 6-22 Winter Games.

“This is a militia that kills, a militia that enters into the homes of people, signing their own permission slips. It is clear they are not welcome in Milan, without a doubt,’' Sala told RTL Radio 102 before ICE’s deployment to the Games was confirmed.

… The confirmation of ICE’s role in Olympic security comes after RAI state TV aired video Sunday of ICE agents threatening to break the glass on the vehicle of a RAI crew reporting in Minneapolis, where ICE operations have sparked mass demonstrations. In the past three weeks, federal officers in Minneapolis have shot and killed two protesters against deportations and immigration enforcement.“
 
nycfan said:
In any event, it is causing a bit of a diplomatic kerfluffle:

“… Milan Mayor Giuseppe Sala said that ICE would not be welcome in his city, which is hosting most ice sports during the Feb. 6-22 Winter Games.

“This is a militia that kills, a militia that enters into the homes of people, signing their own permission slips. It is clear they are not welcome in Milan, without a doubt,’' Sala told RTL Radio 102 before ICE’s deployment to the Games was confirmed.

… The confirmation of ICE’s role in Olympic security comes after RAI state TV aired video Sunday of ICE agents threatening to break the glass on the vehicle of a RAI crew reporting in Minneapolis, where ICE operations have sparked mass demonstrations. In the past three weeks, federal officers in Minneapolis have shot and killed two protesters against deportations and immigration enforcement.“
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wmheel1287 said:
Then youd better hope there are better people than you around when it is your kids being brutalized by police.
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Well.... there's nothing preventing citizens from intervening now, but they all chose to stand around and watch George Floyd die.
 
Callatoroy said:
Was the police officer murdering her? It isn't a hard concept to grasp without trying to use extreme anecdotes. Don't get in the middle of it. You don't know what is happening and why. Stay away, protest, and record. The groups orchestrating these protests want people to get killed / maimed as much as the left says ice wants to shoot people.
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Yep...last sentence is breathtakingly stupid.
 
ZenMode said:
Well.... there's nothing preventing citizens from intervening now, but they all chose to stand around and watch George Floyd die.
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An explanation from back when America was great.



The 1964 murder of Kitty Genovese in NYC, initially reported as having 38 silent witnesses, inspired psychologists John Darley and Bibb Latané to define the "bystander effect". This phenomenon suggests that the presence of others inhibits individuals from intervening in emergencies due to a diffusion of responsibility. While foundational, this case is now known to be inaccurately reported.

Key Details Regarding the Incident and Effect:
  • The Incident (1964): On March 13, 1964, Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death outside her Queens apartment. A subsequent New York Times report claimed 38 witnesses saw or heard the attack, yet did nothing.
  • The Bystander Effect Defined:
    Psychologists John Darley and Bibb Latané used this case to study why people fail to help in emergencies
    . They found that the more people present, the less likely any one person is to intervene (diffusion of responsibility)
    .
    • Social Influence: Individuals in a group monitor the reactions of others to determine if a situation is a true emergency, often leading to inaction (pluralistic ignorance).
    • Historical Inaccuracies: Later investigations found the original Times report to be highly exaggerated; there were not 38 witnesses, and some did try to help or call the police.
    • Legacy: Despite the factual errors, the case remains a landmark in psychology for highlighting how social context impacts individual action.
 
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