—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

[Paine]

… The secret fear of the morally depraved is that virtue is actually common, and that they’re the ones who are alone.

In Minnesota, all of the ideological cornerstones of MAGA have been proved false at once. Minnesotans, not the armed thugs of ICE and the Border Patrol, are brave.

Minnesotans have shown that their community is socially cohesive—because of its diversity and not in spite of it.

Minnesotans have found and loved one another in a world atomized by social media, where empty men have tried to fill their lonely soul with lies about their own inherent superiority.

I read a Substack recently that highlighted right-wing reactions to a “leaked” (actually public) group chat of organizers in Minnesota. They were stunned by how organized the left appeared. Some insisted it must be a paid operation, saying people couldn’t possibly be that coordinated otherwise. Others complained about how disorganized the right is by comparison.

What they can’t imagine is that people might actually be motivated by care for their neighbors. They can’t grasp what solidarity feels like. That’s the left’s greatest strength: human feeling, love, responsibility, and mutual aid driving people to organize and act. The right is hollow by comparison. And that’s why we’ll win.

 

[nycfan]

—> https://www.wsj.com/us-news/fallout...9?st=pRydVP&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[Icky Mettle]

I like Italian ice.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

This last sentence is a criminally stupid fucking take. ICE agents (at least some of them) clearly do want to shoot people. They are doing so at rates that far exceed any rational conclusion otherwise. They are doing so when there is no reasonable fear for their own lives. And they are doing so without the smallest hint of regret that the employment of such force was used. Those folks 100% want to be shooting people.

Their behavior and actions right after shooting these people - or seeing a fellow ICE agent shoot someone - gives them away. Calling them bitches just seconds after they were shot, laughing after a shooting, threatening people that they'll get the same treatment if they don't stop chanting or using whistles or whatever at protests, are not the signs of people who regret shooting someone, they're the signs of people who relish what's happening, have no respect for protestors or constitutional rights, and clearly enjoy throwing their power and force around to bully and intimidate others.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

he probably spent 119 minutes of it yelling at her for how bad he is looking through all this, despite that she was probably just doing as he said. That's what abusive narcissists do.

And complaining that she chose Corey over him, even though Corey was apparently at the meeting too.

 

[ZenMode]

This last sentence is a criminally stupid fucking take. ICE agents (at least some of them) clearly do want to shoot people. They are doing so at rates that far exceed any rational conclusion otherwise. They are doing so when there is no reasonable fear for their own lives. And they are doing so without the smallest hint of regret that the employment of such force was used. Those folks 100% want to be shooting people.

There have been two shootings, both of which, even if you disagree with the use of lethal force, involved situations that either escalated quickly or involved a gun.

I see no reason to believe ICE officers, as a whole, "want" to shoot people.

If that were true, the ICE officers, by himself fighting a mob outside of a hotel, would have certainly ended in a shooting.

 

[Centerpiece]

I read a Substack recently that highlighted right-wing reactions to a “leaked” (actually public) group chat of organizers in Minnesota. They were stunned by how organized the left appeared. Some insisted it must be a paid operation, saying people couldn’t possibly be that coordinated otherwise. Others complained about how disorganized the right is by comparison.

What they can’t imagine is that people might actually be motivated by care for their neighbors. They can’t grasp what solidarity feels like. That’s the left’s greatest strength: human feeling, love, responsibility, and mutual aid driving people to organize and act. The right is hollow by comparison. And that’s why we’ll win.

"...motivated by care for their neighbors." Exactly.

That and the fact that social media, chat-rooms, message boards and platforms have been a thing for over 25 years... and the fact that it's been easy to organize a "flash-mob" all this time. Getting like minded people to "organize" and show up at a particular time and place with intent has been a thing since the very first "flash-mob" ever happened.

So it's totally disingenuous for right-wingers to exclaim "They're ORGANIZED! How did they do it if they're not part of some nefarious, paid-for undercover group of left wing terrorists!?" "It's just not possible!" "They need a leader to rile them up and get them to show up in one place at the same time - just like we had in Jan. 2021!" "They must have a Trump-like cult leader like we do, to get that organized and all on the same page!"

How naive can they be?
How ignorant can the be? Willfully or otherwise...

 

[finesse]

There have been two shootings, both of which, even if you disagree with the use of lethal force, involved situations that either escalated quickly or involved a gun.

I see no reason to believe ICE officers, as a whole, "want" to shoot people.

If that were true, the ICE officers, by himself fighting a mob outside of a hotel, would have certainly ended in a shooting.

If that story is true. Is there a video of that officer doing that or are you still shooting up the Flavor Aid?

 

[Centerpiece]

There have been two shootings, both of which, even if you disagree with the use of lethal force, involved situations that either escalated quickly or involved a gun.

I see no reason to believe ICE officers, as a whole, "want" to shoot people.

If that were true, the ICE officers, by himself fighting a mob outside of a hotel, would have certainly ended in a shooting.

Still carrying the Trump/Maga/ICE water, eh?
You do realize you and your people are on the wrong side of history, no?

 

[Ddseddse]

The sheer number of "You are ignoring content by this member" posts on this thread tell me that some folks are literally willing to try to defend the indefensible. How do you folks sleep at night? Somewhere deep inside you, you know this whole thing, lock stock and barrel, no legalistic parsing required, is morally indefensible. In your most private moments when the reflexive rationalization subsides just a little and leaves the door open enough to let the "Am I the bad guy here?" questions slip in, somewhere deep inside, I know that you know the answer to that question.

 

[OahuHiHeel]

ok, so biting off the tip of someone’s finger through a glove is pretty crazy; it sort of begs the question about the circumstances presenting an opportunity to bite off a fingertip like that, though

Headline should be modified. I initially read it that the woman was killed moments after Pretti. Maybe just my 53 ur old reading comprehension.

 

[rodoheel]

There have been two shootings,

Try again

List of shootings by U.S. immigration agents in the second Trump administration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mulberry Heel]

“… The federal surge into Minneapolis reflects a series of mistaken MAGA assumptions. The first is the belief that diverse communities aren’t possible: “Social bonds form among people who have something in common,” Vance said in a speech last July. “If you stop importing millions of foreigners into the country, you allow social cohesion to form naturally.” Vance’s remarks are the antithesis to the neighborism of the Twin Cities, whose people do not share the narcissism of being capable of loving only those who are exactly like them.

A second MAGA assumption is that the left is insincere in its values, and that principles of inclusion and unity are superficial forms of virtue signaling.

… The MAGA faith in liberal weakness has been paired with the conviction that real men—Trump’s men—are conversely strong. Consider Miller’s bizarre meltdown while addressing Memphis police in October. “The gangbangers that you deal with—they think that they’re ruthless? They have no idea how ruthless we are. They think they’re tough? They have no idea how tough we are,” Miller said. “They think they’re hard-core? We are so much more hard-core than they are.” Around this time, Miller moved his family onto a military base—for safety reasons.

… The secret fear of the morally depraved is that virtue is actually common, and that they’re the ones who are alone.

In Minnesota, all of the ideological cornerstones of MAGA have been proved false at once. Minnesotans, not the armed thugs of ICE and the Border Patrol, are brave.

Minnesotans have shown that their community is socially cohesive—because of its diversity and not in spite of it.

Minnesotans have found and loved one another in a world atomized by social media, where empty men have tried to fill their lonely soul with lies about their own inherent superiority.

Minnesotans have preserved everything worthwhile about “Western civilization,” while armed brutes try to tear it down by force.…”

Diversity is as American as apple pie, and has been from the country's founding. Even among the white population there has always been diversity in national and religious origins (and nativist opposition to immigration, such as against Irish Catholics in the mid-1800s). And the nativist arguments are always the same - immigrants are inferior to native-born residents, they speak weird languages we can't understand and have customs "alien" to mainstream American culture of the time, they're all criminals and terrorists and drunks and generally of low character, and above all, they'll never assimilate into mainstream American culture.

And the nativists have been proven wrong nearly every single time - the Irish (and other Catholics), Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Poles and Russian Jews (and Jews in general), and on and on, have all become a vital part of American life and culture and society. And in fact all of these groups have enormously enriched American culture, cuisine, music, and so much else. Certainly all of those rural Republicans bitching about Hispanic immigration still love traveling to Mexican restaurants in their hometowns and loading up on Mexican food and margaritas. Bottom line is that MAGA is dead wrong about immigration, and in fact it is their view of immigration and diversity in general that is deeply anti-American, not the view of their liberal opponents.

 

[TangledUpInBlue06]

Ok, but how to you think that situation is going to play out when you have multiple armed police officers, who are directly engaged with a suspect, and those officers now have people coming at them and physically assaulting them and potentially armed?

I get where you're coming from - that police would be inclined to kill additional people who were seeking in the first instance to stop the police from killing. Reasonable people can differ here. But to my mind here is how the situation plays out on a more macro scale: Citizens stand up for what is right and just even when it puts them in harm's way. That's a good and healthy thing. Neighbors look out for neighbors. That's a good and healthy thing. The community insists on a level of competence and accountability from the individuals they've armed and cloaked with the state's authority. That's not just a good and healthy thing, that's a vital thing.

I understand your position. I just disagree with it.

 

[wmheel1287]

There have been two shootings, both of which, even if you disagree with the use of lethal force, involved situations that either escalated quickly or involved a gun.

I see no reason to believe ICE officers, as a whole, "want" to shoot people.

If that were true, the ICE officers, by himself fighting a mob outside of a hotel, would have certainly ended in a shooting.

There are far more than 2 shootings. There are 2 murders.

I did not say ICE agents as a whole. I specifically said "at least some of them".

 

[ZenMode]

If that story is true. Is there a video of that officer doing that or are you still shooting up the Flavor Aid?

Skip to about 45 seconds.

 

[donbosco]

"...motivated by care for their neighbors." Exactly.

That and the fact that social media, chat-rooms, message boards and platforms have been a thing for over 25 years... and the fact that it's been easy to organize a "flash-mob" all this time. Getting like minded people to "organize" and show up at a particular time and place with intent has been a thing since the very first "flash-mob" ever happened.

So it's totally disingenuous for right-wingers to exclaim "They're ORGANIZED! How did they do it if they're not part of some nefarious, paid-for undercover group of left wing terrorists!?" "It's just not possible!" "They need a leader to rile them up and get them to show up in one place at the same time - just like we had in Jan. 2021!" "They must have a Trump-like cult leader like we do, to get that organized and all on the same page!"

How naive can they be?
How ignorant can the be? Willfully or otherwise...

The acumen in organizing coupled with the pride involved in doing things well and efficiently go far, far back before the internet. That way of seeing was one of the most alluring and impressive things that I learned about Leftists when I arrived at Carolina in the 1970s. That said, I had seen a pretty good example in high school through the work of our music teacher, who I will always suspect of being "of the Left" as well though she never let on.

 

[finesse]

There are far more than 2 shootings. There are 2 murders.

I did not say ICE agents as a whole. I specifically said "at least some of them".

Fight seems like a stretch to me.

 

[donbosco]

Skip to about 45 seconds.

Drummers can be scary and of course, drums have been used to strike fear into the enemy since the beginning of time.

 

[StrangePackage]

Ok, but how to you think that situation is going to play out when you have multiple armed police officers, who are directly engaged with a suspect, and those officers now have people coming at them, physically assaulting them and potentially armed?

Maybe the ICE agents should have thought about their behavior before it got to this point.

Isn't that the line?