In my mid Life I was an actively engaged Christian

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mpaer said:
Now in the last ten years I have attended a lot of country funerals-GFs relatives mostly- and the graveside preaching screams of being saved, heaven and hell, blah blah Most of the preachers are some version of Baptist I guess ( not Dean Smith's Binkley Baptist church). Mostly Trumpsters for sure

I don't consider my past-present religous beliefs as being on the same planet as these folks-yet they say they are Christians
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This part really hit home to me. I've reached the age at which many of my aunts and uncles and other older relatives are passing away. My mom came from a large family and a number of her siblings have passed away in the last few years. My favorite uncle on her side of the family passed from cancer earlier this year, and his sweet wife passed from cancer less than two years ago. I've attended nearly all of their funerals, and they've all been small-town country Southern Baptist funerals.

And I've just been appalled at most of these funerals by how the preachers have preached at the family and other mourners about hell and heaven and how everybody there just needed to "get right with god" or they'd never see their loved ones again, because they're now in heaven and if you're not saved and born again you'll never get to heaven to be with them. I grew up in country Baptist churches but having left that denomination many years ago I'll admit I had forgotten just how much they openly try to frighten and scare you into finding Jesus. And if you want to believe all that then fine I guess, but I think a funeral is just a totally inappropriate place for that kind of hellfire-and-brimstone preaching.

My uncle who died earlier this year was a sweet and caring man and I knew him well growing up and his passing was hard to take, yet one of the old country preachers who spoke barely mentioned my uncle's life or personal qualities, but just rambled on and on about how he was now with Jesus and that we all had to get right with Jesus or we'd not go to heaven and would never see him again and so on. I was kind of angered, to be honest, that he barely mentioned my uncle or his life at all, and several of my other relatives who have also left the Southern Baptist church were angered as well. I will say that going to these funerals has only justified my decision to leave the Southern Baptist church - as Snoop said recently, it's really just a lot of (Old South) social conservatism/Trumpism with a "Jesus is your friend who forgives you whenever you sin" mentality thrown in.
 
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TarSpiel said:
Ehrman once told me that if he ever did get back into church, he'd pick one that just had a lot of rituals in it. Just shut up and walk around the cracker 3 times or whatever.
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Nowadays, I think adopting certain ritualistic practices is of real psychological comfort to people, myself included. Orthodoxy is the real mindfuck. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem that modern Christianity (Luther onwards) runs into is that it depends on individual "right" (as in correct) belief over and above anything else.
 
breepf said:
Nowadays, I think adopting certain ritualistic practices is of real psychological comfort to people, myself included. Orthodoxy is the real mindfuck. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem that modern Christianity (Luther onwards) runs into is that it depends on individual "right" (as in correct) belief over and above anything else.
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I read Luther differently. I think he means right behavior (orthopraxy) to be more important that right belief (orthodoxy).
 
breepf said:
Nowadays, I think adopting certain ritualistic practices is of real psychological comfort to people, myself included. Orthodoxy is the real mindfuck. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem that modern Christianity (Luther onwards) runs into is that it depends on individual "right" (as in correct) belief over and above anything else.
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I have this great book, "10 Theories of Religion" by Daniel Pals, which gives great intros to the major theoretical approaches to religion (among the 10 are E.B. Tyler, Freud, Marx, Weber, Durkheim, EE Evans-Pritchard, William James, Geertz, etc). I had read Durkheim in the past, but one semester that chapter just really hit home to me.

Durkheim basically says that religion is rooted more or less in the need for social bonding beyond the family, or even the clan. That it achieves those purposes through ritual (not belief). In a ritual, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want about it, and it never becomes divisive, if you just do the thing (whatever it is). It just sunk in to me that this is probably a better, more accurate, and deeper understanding of the roots of human religiosity than anything else I've ever heard. And yea, it wipes away the entire edifice of doctrine, creeds, orthodoxy and what have you. You can believe whatever you want, just go to the church, get a flier, have some coffee with people in the foyer, sing some songs, listen to someone talk for a while, and then go out with friends for lunch. Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO. It would be even better if the preacher spoke in a dead language like Latin that nobody understood.

So yea, for me personally, I'm a big fan of organized religion, especially when people don't talk too much about the "beliefs" part of it.
 
TarSpiel said:
I have this great book, "10 Theories of Religion" by Daniel Pals, which gives great intros to the major theoretical approaches to religion (among the 10 are E.B. Tyler, Freud, Marx, Weber, Durkheim, EE Evans-Pritchard, William James, Geertz, etc). I had read Durkheim in the past, but one semester that chapter just really hit home to me.

Durkheim basically says that religion is rooted more or less in the need for social bonding beyond the family, or even the clan. That it achieves those purposes through ritual (not belief). In a ritual, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want about it, and it never becomes divisive, if you just do the thing (whatever it is). It just sunk in to me that this is probably a better, more accurate, and deeper understanding of the roots of human religiosity than anything else I've ever heard. And yea, it wipes away the entire edifice of doctrine, creeds, orthodoxy and what have you. You can believe whatever you want, just go to the church, get a flier, have some coffee with people in the foyer, sing some songs, listen to someone talk for a while, and then go out with friends for lunch. Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO. It would be even better if the preacher spoke in a dead language like Latin that nobody understood.

So yea, for me personally, I'm a big fan of organized religion, especially when people don't talk too much about the "beliefs" part of it.
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A neighborhood pub which is frequented by a bunch of regulars fills most of those social needs.
 
TarSpiel said:
I have this great book, "10 Theories of Religion" by Daniel Pals, which gives great intros to the major theoretical approaches to religion (among the 10 are E.B. Tyler, Freud, Marx, Weber, Durkheim, EE Evans-Pritchard, William James, Geertz, etc). I had read Durkheim in the past, but one semester that chapter just really hit home to me.

Durkheim basically says that religion is rooted more or less in the need for social bonding beyond the family, or even the clan. That it achieves those purposes through ritual (not belief). In a ritual, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want about it, and it never becomes divisive, if you just do the thing (whatever it is). It just sunk in to me that this is probably a better, more accurate, and deeper understanding of the roots of human religiosity than anything else I've ever heard. And yea, it wipes away the entire edifice of doctrine, creeds, orthodoxy and what have you. You can believe whatever you want, just go to the church, get a flier, have some coffee with people in the foyer, sing some songs, listen to someone talk for a while, and then go out with friends for lunch. Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO. It would be even better if the preacher spoke in a dead language like Latin that nobody understood.

So yea, for me personally, I'm a big fan of organized religion, especially when people don't talk too much about the "beliefs" part of it.
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I wrote a longer reply about Jon Levenson's recent book on the Jewish Sabbath, but abandoned it because I can't quite land the point that I was trying to make. Long story short, the trouble with contemporary ritual is that it all tends towards acts of completely voluntary, individual self-improvement. For all that talk about religio as that which binds, modern liberalism has made us all creatures of conscience who can bind and unbind ourselves as we see fit.

Liberalism certainly has plenty of ideas centered on belonging. But my suspicion is that liberalism just could never develop rituals for, say, the value of toleration with the same psychic purchase as the sabbath, or communion, or whatever. That being said, liberalism managed to thoroughly dis-embed those rituals from the (comforting and terrifying) forms of coercion that now make them such powerful examples for the post-liberal imagination.
 
Huh? said:
I am frequently struck with the notion that we are all currently experiencing heaven...
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Wow, if true can you imagine how horrible hell must be?

I'm really hoping for reincarnation without my memories erased. You know the saying, If I only knew then what I know now...
 
Milk and Cookies said:
Meh. I've never seen a good reason to believe any god claims. They all seem to be ancient attempts at morality.
And even the story of Jesus "sacrificing" himself -- I mean, he didn't "die" he just became god again. What an amazing sacrifice. Its incredible what people can be convinced to believe through indoctrination. That's all well and good. Believe what you want. But when people pass laws to subject me to their bronze age beliefs that's when I get really annoyed.
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I've read of studies in influence where 1/3 of the participants were lead to tell of vacations and other memories they had documented as never happening at the beginning of the study.
 
TarSpiel said:
Eh, not really, unless drinking with others is as deep as your social relationships go.
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It’s literally involves the same “ritualistic behavior” you described in going to church, but minus the fairy tales indoctrination, us vs them fear mongering and grifting via guilt.

There is no social behavior or good deed a religious person can do that a non-religious person can’t also do. The supernatural mythology is superfluous to pursuing the benefits of group social interactions.
 
TarSpiel said:
I have this great book, "10 Theories of Religion" by Daniel Pals, which gives great intros to the major theoretical approaches to religion (among the 10 are E.B. Tyler, Freud, Marx, Weber, Durkheim, EE Evans-Pritchard, William James, Geertz, etc). I had read Durkheim in the past, but one semester that chapter just really hit home to me.

Durkheim basically says that religion is rooted more or less in the need for social bonding beyond the family, or even the clan. That it achieves those purposes through ritual (not belief). In a ritual, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want about it, and it never becomes divisive, if you just do the thing (whatever it is). It just sunk in to me that this is probably a better, more accurate, and deeper understanding of the roots of human religiosity than anything else I've ever heard. And yea, it wipes away the entire edifice of doctrine, creeds, orthodoxy and what have you. You can believe whatever you want, just go to the church, get a flier, have some coffee with people in the foyer, sing some songs, listen to someone talk for a while, and then go out with friends for lunch. Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO. It would be even better if the preacher spoke in a dead language like Latin that nobody understood.

So yea, for me personally, I'm a big fan of organized religion, especially when people don't talk too much about the "beliefs" part of it.
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I've often said that I would join a club that interacted and functioned as many churches do as long as there is no religion involved.

A problem, in my opinion, is that with the mega churches, it's just a meeting to be preached to then they go home. I just don't see the same relationship building in the mega churches.
 
Milk and Cookies said:
It’s literally involves the same “ritualistic behavior” you described in going to church
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It literally does not.

And for the record, I did not talk about "ritualistic behavior." I talked about rituals. All of those rituals, in religious traditions all over the world and from the dawn of time, are imbued by the participants with a sense of the sacred. It's nothing like going to a bar and drinking with friends. Jesus Christ...it makes my eyes bleed even having to type that out.
 
TarSpiel said:
It literally does not.

And for the record, I did not talk about "ritualistic behavior." I talked about rituals. All of those rituals, in religious traditions all over the world and from the dawn of time, are imbued by the participants with a sense of the sacred. It's nothing like going to a bar and drinking with friends. Jesus Christ...it makes my eyes bleed even having to type that out.
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Let's compare with your literal quotes:

"just go to the church" > just go to the bar
"get a flier" > read a flier for upcoming events at the bar
"have some coffee with people in the foyer" > have some coffee with people at the bar
"sing some songs" > sing along to some songs the bar is playing...or hell just sing whatever you want
"listen to someone talk for a while" > listen to your friend or stranger or bartender talk for a while
"and then go out with friends for lunch" > and then go out with friends for lunch

There is LITERALLY no difference to what you described

If you want to strip away beliefs from evaluating the benefits of gathering in groups to perform rituals, congratulations you've just equated going to church with going to a Klan rally. It doesn't matter the Klan's beliefs and doctrines support terrorism of minorities right? Are the Klan's rituals imbued with a sense of the sacred? Let me quote you again to make sure I get it right..."Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO."

My point is that yeah of course there is social benefit from gathering in groups with your community, but the underlying beliefs that are the basis for the gathering absolutely matter. Gather to build social bonds and community but drop the fairy tales and hate. We don't need them.
 
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Milk and Cookies said:
Let's compare with your literal quotes:

"just go to the church" > just go to the bar
"get a flier" > read a flier for upcoming events at the bar
"have some coffee with people in the foyer" > have some coffee with people at the bar
"sing some songs" > sing along to some songs the bar is playing...or hell just sing whatever you want
"listen to someone talk for a while" > listen to your friend or stranger or bartender talk for a while
"and then go out with friends for lunch" > and then go out with friends for lunch

There is LITERALLY no difference to what you described

If you want to strip away beliefs from evaluating the benefits of gathering in groups to perform rituals, congratulations you've just equated going to church with going to a Klan rally. It doesn't matter the Klan's beliefs and doctrines support terrorism of minorities right? Are the Klan's rituals imbued with a sense of the sacred? Let me quote you again to make sure I get it right..."Pretty harmless if you think about it that way, and there are strong positive benefits IMO."

My point is that yeah of course there is social benefit from gathering in groups with your community, but the underlying beliefs that are the basis for the gathering absolutely matter. Gather to build social bonds and community but drop the fairy tales and hate. We don't need them.
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I'm just shaking my head, wondering what I did wrong in life to be in a discussion with someone who thinks that going to the bar is the same thing as going to a religious service, and claim that they are LITERALLY (all caps) the same thing. SMH.

In order for going to a bar to be remotely comparable to a religious service (and mind you, I'm not really thinking of Christian ones, but inclusive of indigenous practices, Abrahamic traditions, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto...the aspects they have in common). You'd have to

Go with your whole family
Have all (or most) members of the community there
Not be drunk or stoned
Perform rituals in silence
Pray
Sing (and dance) together (not "hell just sing whatever you want")
Eat together afterwards

If you met those conditions, you might have something resembling a religious service. But your idea that going to the bar to get drunk with friends is comparable to how religion has functioned sociologically for the entirety of its existance is just plain asinine.

Also, your reduction of religion to "fairy tales" and "hate" is pretty thin. I know a lot of religious people who have less hate in their hearts for you than you seem to have for them. And even fairy tales can contain moral lessons, and widen our perspectives on things. You seem to like to see yourself as a rational intellectual...well, start acting like one.
 
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