Iran Catch-All | IRAN WAR - US to BLOCKADE Strait

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NATO is a defensive alliance. In no way shape or form is anyone in NATO committed to supporting the unliteral aggressive military action of another member state. We didn't support England and France when they tried to retain control over the Suez Canal. We did not send troops to help France in Vietnam, nor the UK in the Falklands.

This is not hard. If we are attacked, Nato must be there to help. If we attack, we have to persuade our allies and if we cannot, then we cannot complain about them. Trump doesn't want NATO to help in Hormuz because it's the right thing for them. He wants them to do his bidding.
 
Callatoroy said:
I don't think i have disagreed with that and every bit of that is legitimate reason for criticism. where the hate, rage, and tds comes into play is disregarding that his hands were tied and the worse consequences that we would be facing if we had told israel have at it but we are sitting this one out. or that even if we sat it out gas prices would be where they are now. at least with our involvement we can influence the decline when we leave.

or in disregarding the reason he didn't spend weeks or months building nato consensus, or informing nato before going. you don't have to agree with his reasons, but they are valid and logical. hate and tds blocks prevents any critical analysis.
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1. It is incredibly illogical and invalid to expect other countries to join us when we can't even articulate a strategic goal. Other countries are not American military units. The president of the US cannot move their militaries around like pawns. If Trump had said, "hey allies, here's my specific goal, can you help" they might have acted differently.

But of course, he didn't. He gave the podium to Hegseth to talk exclusively about kicking ass and blowing stuff up and being the alpha predator and nobody is going to sign up for that because it is insane.

2. His reasons for not building consensus might or might not have been valid, but choices matter. When Hubert led us to the NCAA championship game, he relied on an Iron Five. He had valid reasons. But the risk is that if someone gets injured or ejected, we might be fucked -- and indeed that's what very nearly happened against Baylor. It would have been total bullshit for him to start harshing on our bench players for not producing when he never developed the bench all year.

If you don't build consensus, fine. But you run the risk of not having backup if you need it. Same principle.

3. The true TDS is people like you who think Trump should never have to make tradeoffs, or suffer consequences from his own decisions.
 
Callatoroy said:
worse consequences that we would be facing if we had told israel have at it but we are sitting this one out.
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Why would letting Israel going it alone lead to worse consequences? I'm all for Israel going it alone. Why should we do the fighting, dying and spending American taxpayer's dollars on protecting Israel, while the IDF bombs and kills hundreds of civilians in Beirut?

www.theguardian.com

The deadliest 10 minutes in decades: Lebanese reel from Israeli strikes that killed hundreds

Beirut residents and officials say civilians were main casualties in operation that bombed 100-plus targets in 10 minutes
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Bobfripp said:
Why would letting Israel going it alone lead to worse consequences? I'm all for Israel going it alone. Why should we do the fighting, dying and spending American taxpayer's dollars on protecting Israel, while the IDF bombs and kills hundreds of civilians in Beirut?

www.theguardian.com

The deadliest 10 minutes in decades: Lebanese reel from Israeli strikes that killed hundreds

Beirut residents and officials say civilians were main casualties in operation that bombed 100-plus targets in 10 minutes
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Numerous reasons but a simple reason is it would take far longer for Israel doing it alone which means far longer for oil prices to be high.

Is the dem effort trying to pass a resolution to end war a good thing?
 
Callatoroy said:
then we disagree. israel was going to take advantage of the mullah gathering with us or without us.
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Yeah, because that's the only time ever thay they have all been gathered Im sure. What we know is that Israel has made the same pitch to every other POTUS and never acted alone. I dont think serious people believe they would have this time either. Bibi played Trump.
 
Callatoroy said:
Numerous reasons but a simple reason is it would take far longer for Israel doing it alone which means far longer for oil prices to be high.

Is the dem effort trying to pass a resolution to end war a good thing?
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And them not doing it at all would have prevented the entire mess. We have absolutely no business in the Middle East. None. Zero. We have no allies there. Only varying shades of enemy. That will never change in any of our lifetimes. All we do by being involved militarily there is made that hatred more intense.
 
wmheel1287 said:
And them not doing it at all would have prevented the entire mess. We have absolutely no business in the Middle East. None. Zero. We have no allies there. Only varying shades of enemy. That will never change in any of our lifetimes. All we do by being involved militarily there is made that hatred more intense.
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We have never been in a better position in the ME geopolitically than we are now.

I understand how you feel about whether we should be there. The fact is we are. So is the dem resolution to end it a good thing given the situation as it is today?
 
Callatoroy said:
We have never been in a better position in the ME geopolitically than we are now.

I understand how you feel about whether we should be there. The fact is we are. So is the dem resolution to end it a good thing given the situation as it is today?
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Absolutely. Anything that removes power from Trump to further the damage is a positive step. They rail about letting Europe and other countries handle the Strait. Those nations have made it clear they will do so once hostilities end.

Pack up, go home, and let the grownups clean up our mess.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Absolutely. Anything that removes power from Trump to further the damage is a positive step. They rail about letting Europe and other countries handle the Strait. Those nations have made it clear they will do so once hostilities end.

Pack up, go home, and let the grownups clean up our mess.
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What makes you think the other countries would in a manner that doesnt leave Iran in control of it militarily or extorting tolls? You wouldn’t be concerned about that?
 
Callatoroy said:
We have never been in a better position in the ME geopolitically than we are now.

I understand how you feel about whether we should be there. The fact is we are. So is the dem resolution to end it a good thing given the situation as it is today?
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Aren’t we at the end of the 5-6 week timeline that you said you would support?
 
Callatoroy said:
What makes you think the other countries would in a manner that doesnt leave Iran in control of it militarily or extorting tolls? You wouldn’t be concerned about that?
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Bluntly, we cannot accomplish the goal of taking away control from Iran and/or preventing the charging of tolls anyway. We do not have the ability to do so practically without ongoing catastrophic losses of our own (monetary and human). Such are the consequences of our stupid actions.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Bluntly, we cannot accomplish the goal of taking away control from Iran and/or preventing the charging of tolls anyway. We do not have the ability to do so practically without ongoing catastrophic losses of our own (monetary and human). Such are the consequences of our stupid actions.
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It’s a Hail Mary, but Iran may go for the following….

If you open the straight and crease all hostilities in the region, the US promises to revoke all financial support for Israel. Further, we will not participate in any Israeli offensive campaign.
 
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