Iran Catch-All | IRAN WAR

[p5mmr9]

It's honestly pretty difficult for me because I do not see anything remotely anti-semetic about the Netanyahu cartoon. Jewish people should all recognize and acknowledge that Bibi is a monster and he most certainly is controlling and manipulating Trump in precisely the same way Putin is and Xi has done.

What does Netanyahu being a monster have to do with using an anti-semitic trope? Are you suggesting using anti-semitic tropes or other racist tropes are ok if the person shown is a "monster" - again, this has nothing to do with Netanyahu - it has everything to do with anyone defending the use of these tropes and of course it has everything to do with Jews around the world who are subjected to this type of nonsense.

 

[p5mmr9]

He's being judged by his character and actions. Part of those involve using his religion as a weapon against the gullible fools here. Take the religion out of it, something America should have done with Israel fifty years ago. Would we have given Israel the same kinds of leeway in selling our secrets, attacking our ships and manipulating our citizens?

If I had to take sides it would be against anyone who claimed allegiance to the God of Abraham in any form. They've caused nothing but trouble. I will say that's mostly because others believed that the Jews had a special covenant and they thought that they could replace the Jews in that role.

Again, this isn't about Netanyahu or his character or actions. But just to be clear, you are saying "Israel is...manipulating our citizens" - because that's part of the trope.

And I guess now we are anti "God of Abraham" because "they've caused nothing but trouble"

I think some of you should educate yourselves on anti-semitism.

 

[finesse]

Again, this isn't about Netanyahu or his character or actions. But just to be clear, you are saying "Israel is...manipulating our citizens" - because that's part of the trope.

And I guess now we are anti "God of Abraham" because "they've caused nothing but trouble"

I think some of you should educate yourselves on anti-semitism.

It is all about Netanyahu and his character and his actions. Are you saying that Israel has not used religion to manipulate Americans? Do note that I am neither saying Israeli Jews directly use their religion , that's generally the province of American ones, but they damned sure use the Christian one to. He's a terrible human being who has done terrible things under the guise of the leader of Israel in the lust for power and destruction.

 

[nycfan]

But if it is so simple and risk-free, why don’t we do it?

 

[BlueSteel]

But if it is so simple and risk-free, why don’t we do it?

 

[BlueSmoke]

What does Netanyahu being a monster have to do with using an anti-semitic trope? Are you suggesting using anti-semitic tropes or other racist tropes are ok if the person shown is a "monster" - again, this has nothing to do with Netanyahu - it has everything to do with anyone defending the use of these tropes and of course it has everything to do with Jews around the world who are subjected to this type of nonsense.

Just casually following this discussion and just speaking for me, you have made a good point that the puppet thing is a trope which I was not immediately considering and not as aware of as I should be. I am sure we all would disagree with tropes against any group.

Moving the discussion along to something more productive, then I would ask what is the proper way to express displeasure with actions by the Israeli government that we disagree with? But as I am writing this, it also occurs to me that it may not just be the Israeli government. Clearly, AIPAC is getting some heavy criticism for some recent election activities which seem designed to promote "unconditional support for Israel. So how should we talk about this "unconditional support for Israel" idea that's being promoted?

 

[nycfan]

[They've kept about 350 troops there since a draw down from several thousand]

 

[gregh1]

Just casually following this discussion and just speaking for me, you have made a good point that the puppet thing is a trope which I was not immediately considering and not as aware of as I should be. I am sure we all would disagree with tropes against any group.

Moving the discussion along to something more productive, then I would ask what is the proper way to express displeasure with actions by the Israeli government that we disagree with? But as I am writing this, it also occurs to me that it may not just be the Israeli government. Clearly, AIPAC is getting some heavy criticism for some recent election activities which seem designed to promote "unconditional support for Israel. So how should we talk about this "unconditional support for Israel" idea that's being promoted?

This ^
@p5mmr9 i also wasn't aware of the puppet trope til this AM, and now i understand how that symbol/reference could be offensive.
But I can't to see "Israel is...manipulating our citizens" as part of some trope. Trump has been coerced (or threatened) into actions that benefit Bibi (and/or Bibi friendly Americans), isn't that manipulation?

 

[Bobfripp]

This is shockingly anti-Semitic. It's also a ridiculous assertion.

 

[zeuxis]

I'm just waiting for when St. Donald of Mar-a-Lago looks at a map and demands that the "Straight of Hormuz" be renamed the "Crooked of Hormuz."

Iran should troll him and rename it Trans of Hormuz.

 

[Milk and Cookies]

Netanyahu isn't controlling Trump. The only person in his administration suggesting such is a raging anti-semite. So, congratulations for associating yourself with that person.

At first I thought you were objecting to the illustration of a Jewish person being a puppeteer. Certainly that’s a well-worn visual trope so it’s fair to raise concerns I think.

But here you seem to be objecting to anyone insinuating Bibi has manipulated Trump. So its not just the illustration but the mere mention of a Jewish person manipulating someone else that you think is wrong. I think claiming anti-semitism here is a bridge too far. Bini has influenced Trump for sure. We can debate whether that influence has raised to the level of manipulation, but throwing out a blanket "you can't say anyone Jewish is manipulative" is unjustified, imo.

 

[dukeman92]

 

[sringwal]

The fastest way to end this war is to reinstitute the draft and call Barron's number.

 

[superrific]

I think some of you should educate yourselves on anti-semitism.

OK, I am educated about antisemitism. I'm familiar with the puppet tropes. Surely you would agree that the traditional antisemitic cartoons placed the Jewish manipulator in the shadows, behind the scenes, right? That is, after all, why he is a puppet master. He's not the main actor, he's the unseen evil. Yes?

But this Netanyahu cartoon puts Netanyahu front and center. In fact, he's by far the dominant image in the cartoon. The Trump puppet is small and doing nothing. It's a portrait of Bibi holding a Trump doll. Would you agree with that?

And so I interpret it as this: Bibi is actually acting and doing what that old vile propaganda depicts. He's not in the shadows. He's just doing it, because he can. Because he has a dupe who he knows how to manipulate. Wouldn't you agree?

Put another way, the subtext of the cartoon is: how are we supposed to be fighting ignorant antisemitism when Jewish leaders are acting in accordance with those evil ignorant tropes? How do you explain to an Elders-of-Zion-curious young person that Jews do not actually secretly control everything, when everyone can see with their own eyes Jewish leaders pulling the strings of a stupid goy?

Whether or not Bibi should be cognizant of that in performing his duties is a different question. Perhaps it's not the duty of Israelis to act opposite to the old propaganda. But the fact is that the Bibi-Trump relationship is not, in fact, different than the Elders-of-Zion depictions.

 

[superrific]

The fastest way to end this war is to reinstitute the draft and call Barron's number.

Doubtful. Trump doesn't know anything about his son other than he's tall. I doubt he would give a fuck.

 

[superrific]

Netanyahu isn't controlling Trump. The only person in his administration suggesting such is a raging anti-semite. So, congratulations for associating yourself with that person.

OK, so this is weird. I don't base my opinions on anything this administration says about anything, except in the sense that their denials are epistemically equivalent to confirmations.

The reason we think that Bibi is controlling Trump is because we can see with our own two eyes what is happening. It's not just Iran. It was the whole Gaza situation as well. Bibi wanted to end the war on his terms, after his bloodlust was satiated (note: I wrote that phrase for a specific reason similar to my post above), and he played Trump into going along with it all the way to the end.

This is not a matter of opinion. Well, let me put it differently: it is a matter of opinion whether Bibi has as much influence on Trump as it appears, but the appearance is not a matter of opinion. It is an obvious fact that Trump's Middle Eastern policies are exactly what Bibi wants them to be.

 

[sringwal]

Doubtful. Trump doesn't know anything about his son other than he's tall. I doubt he would give a fuck.

Melanie would, though.

 

[superrific]

without resorting to these ridiculous "Jews control the world" tropes...or in this case, "this Jew controls Trump"

I'm kind of puzzled as to why you think those are comparable statements. Let's change the imagery a little bit. Do you think these are equivalent images:

1. A depiction of ape-like black people gorging themselves on bananas; and
2. A photograph of a real life black person enjoying a banana?

I do not think the odiousness and prevalence of #1 means that #2 is somehow racist

 

[lawtig02]

Continuing to spiral. Even Ram, if he's being honest, would say he didn't expect it to get to this point. From CNN --

Thousands more US Marines are deploying to the Middle East, officials say​

Thousands more US Marines and sailors are heading towards the Middle East as the war with Iran is about to enter its fourth week. The 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit and Boxer Amphibious Ready Group have had their deployment rerouted and accelerated and are now expected to go to the Middle East, two US officials told CNN.

One of the officials said it was unclear if the entire ARG-MEU (Amphibious Ready Group and Marine Expeditionary Unit) would be deploying or if only some elements would be going to the Middle East. The group was originally expected to deploy to the Indo-Pacific region, the official said. It is also unclear when the original deployment date was, when the Marines would arrive in the region, or what specifically they would be doing when they arrived.

The deployment, first reported by Newsmax, comes as a second Marine expeditionary unit — the 31st MEU, and the Tripoli Amphibious Ready Group — are also deploying to the region. CNN previously reported that the USS Tripoli was seen approaching Singapore earlier this week.

It’s unclear if both MEUs will operate in the Middle East simultaneously and for how long, or if the 11th MEU will replace the 31st upon its arrival.

The MEUs are rapid-response forces consisting of roughly 2,200 Marines and sailors. With the Amphibious Ready Group, the total number of personnel is roughly 4,500. While they can provide on-the-ground capabilities, the ARG-MEUs also come with aviation, logistics, and other support elements that provide more options to commanders and could “relieve pressure” on current operations in the Middle East, the first US official said.

MEUs are a Swiss Army knife of military capabilities: they have supported large-scale evacuation operations and other on-the-ground missions, and they come with substantial aviation and logistics components. The 11th MEU is capable of “conducting amphibious operations, selected maritime special operations at night or under adverse weather conditions, crisis response and limited contingency operations,” the unit’s website says.

 

[roostra]

I think this is a complicated issue. There is no question that "the Jewish people are secretive, manipulative people that are controlling the world" is a horrifyingly antisemitic trope and one that has been visually represented by puppet-master imagery.

I also think there is a good faith argument that Netanyahu has explicitly manipulated Trump, much in the same way that Putin and any number of other authoritarian leaders have. I certainly don't think the particular accusation against Netanyahu is antisemitic (his manipulation of Trump stems from the fact that he is the leader of a country, not that he is Jewish, in my opinion).

The use of the imagery is much more complicated and I can see arguments on both sides that are rather compelling as to why you should/should not use it. There are certainly examples of it being used in clearly non-antisemitic ways (the examples with portraying Putin or other non-Jewish folks as puppet masters). My gut feeling is that its use is not inherently antisemitic. But it certainly could be problematic and could have unintended consequences.

A personal example from my professional life: in an administrative hearing, I was defending a tenant (white) whose landlord was a person of color. Part of our case was that the tenant was afraid of the landlord (in my judgment, with good reason, based on a series of hostile confrontations involving yelling and threats). I was pressed very firmly by a commissioner who noted that the trope of the "angry black man" had been weaponized against people of color for years and he strongly implied that I was being racist (or maybe my client was, he wasn't super clear). I 100% believe that this trope has been used in this way - I have seen it happen to my clients of color. Completely agree that it is problematic

But I also believe that in my case, that this particular landlord was angry, scary, and threatening.

So what do you do if there is a trope that has been used in racist/antisemitic/bigoted ways but happens to be accurate in a particular specific situation?