Iran Catch-All | Protester Massacre? CBS reports 12,000+ killed

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WaynetheDrain said:
How difficult it must be to bend and twist the way you do to distort the facts. You must be very limber.

When you attack any location with a civilian populace, you are targeting civilians. Period.
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So you're saying the term "collateral damage" doesn't exist? Anything destroyed or anyone killed was "targeted"?
 
ZenMode said:
"targeting of any civilian of any side is wrong and should be condemned"

Agree. Civilian collateral damage isn't the same as targeting them, however.

Israel's target is enemy combatants and terrorist leaders. While targeting members of those two groups, civilians are inadvertently killed....as is common in war and is exacerbated by the fact that Hamas wants civilians to be killed.
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Israel is blatantly targeting civilians. Just because the total number killed is still under your acceptable level, doesn’t mean they aren’t targeting them. Also, starving an entire population is included in the definition of targeting civilians.
 
RaiGuy said:
Israel is blatantly targeting civilians. Just because the total number killed is still under your acceptable level, doesn’t mean they aren’t targeting them. Also, starving an entire population is included in the definition of targeting civilians.
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Again - being in a war and everyone setting the bar at “target just a small group but also feed the entire population around them” is insanity.
 
RaiGuy said:
Israel is blatantly targeting civilians. Just because the total number killed is still under your acceptable level, doesn’t mean they aren’t targeting them. Also, starving an entire population is included in the definition of targeting civilians.
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I can provide example after example of Israel going above and beyond to warn civilians about upcoming strikes. Other than just the fact that there simply are dead civilians, what evidence do you have that they are being targeted?
 
ZenMode said:
I can provide example after example of Israel going above and beyond to warn civilians about upcoming strikes. Other than just the fact that there are dead civilians, what evidence do you have that they are being targeted?
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The tons of examples that I’ve posted before. Sniping children, blowing up tents, targeting journalists, hell, even killing their own hostages that were walking, holding up their hands, and speaking in Hebrew. That’s not even mentioning mass starvation. How much more evidence do you need? Kids with sniper bullets in their skulls isn’t enough for you? Notice i said kids, plural, not just one accident.
 
ZenMode said:
I can provide example after example of Israel going above and beyond to warn civilians about upcoming strikes. Other than just the fact that there simply are dead civilians, what evidence do you have that they are being targeted?
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RaiGuy said:
The tons of examples that I’ve posted before. Sniping children, blowing up tents, targeting journalists, hell, even killing their own hostages that were walking, holding up their hands, and speaking in Hebrew. That’s not even mentioning mass starvation. How much more evidence do you need? Kids with sniper bullets in their skulls isn’t enough for you? Notice i said kids, plural, not just one accident.
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The unfortunate reality is that Islamic terrorists have no problem using, and sacrificing the lives of, children. If you are an IDF soldier, you have to be aware of the fact that women, children and really any and all civilians are potentially going to detonate in front of you or pull out a gun and end your life.

And yes, bad things happen in war. There are very unfortunate incidents, like IDF killing their own people who were only looking for help. Again, IDF cannot trust anyone in Gaza because any of them could potentially end your life.

Those incidents are very obviously the exception and not the norm. The definition of genocide, as was discussed previously, is that there is intent. Clearly, despite the accidents and mistakes, IDF is not intent on killing civilians. It's obviously the opposite.
 
Palestinian activists should be cheering Israel's attempt at destabilizing the Iranian government. 10/07 does not happen without Iran's explicit support. Israel does not invade Gaza without the 10/07 pretense. I was scratching my head trying to understand why RaiGuy and ZenMode are here, rolling together in a circular dust cloud started on the Gaza thread - and I came to the conclusion that it must be due to Iran's complicity and its role in 10/07.
 
Lando said:
Let's say Israel destroys Iran with ease and completely eliminates them as a threat for decades. How does that improve life for Palestinians going forward?
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At issue isn't "destroying" Iran - it is regime change. If there is a new government then everything changes for the Middle East.

This Iranian regime is the primary supporter of state sanctioned terrorism in the region...not just Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad - but other organizations in the area and in Europe. Again - 10/07 does not happen without Iran's support and Israel does not invade Gaza without 10/07.
 
To be clear - I would have rather Iran joined the world via the JCPOA, but our electorate was happy with a POTUS who makes them laugh. Destabilization and regime change seem like the best of a lot of shitty alternatives.
 
p5mmr9 said:
At issue isn't "destroying" Iran - it is regime change. If there is a new government then everything changes for the Middle East.

This Iranian regime is the primary supporter of state sanctioned terrorism in the region...not just Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad - but other organizations in the area and in Europe. Again - 10/07 does not happen without Iran's support and Israel does not invade Gaza without 10/07.
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10/7 also doesn’t happen without years of Israeli occupation, blockade, and mistreatment/killing of Palestinians
 
RaiGuy said:
10/7 also doesn’t happen without years of Israeli occupation, blockade, and mistreatment/killing of Palestinians
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I'm not so sure about that. Israel invaded Gaza in 1967 because Palestinian terrorists were using Gaza to stage attacks against Israel. That was when Gaza was occupied by Egypt.

Also - the "whataboutism" of this conflict is tiring. Whatabout when the Arab League and Palestinian delegation refused to negotiate with the UN in 1947 during the UNSOP thinking they could just kick the Jews out en masse? The whole region is historically filled with whataboutisms. It's the whataboutisms that keep history on this rail of war and strife. Whatabout the surrounding Arab states attacking Israel over and over again and supporting terrorist actors in the region hoping to destabilize Israel? Whatabout when Arafat left Camp David, Clinton begging him to stay, noting that this was his best chance for his people? Whatabout the second intifada? What about the disengagement from Gaza? What about how it now seems almost impossible to ever see a Palestinian Country??? It's ridiculous.
 
Whataboutsim has left the Palestinian people with nothing and the Israeli electorate a mix of those who are exasperated, those demanding revenge, and those off the deep end of religious extremism.
 
At some point every people that is led by a rogue government has risen up against it or suffered. Palestinian people need to raise up against Hamas or this will continue. Constantly saying Israel is evil when you are being led by Hamas is ridiculous, especially when poll numbers for Hamas are high. The Palestinians have willing made a choice to back their terrorist leaders.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
At some point every people that is led by a rogue government has risen up against it or suffered. Palestinian people need to raise up against Hamas or this will continue. Constantly saying Israel is evil when you are being led by Hamas is ridiculous, especially when poll numbers for Hamas are high. The Palestinians have willing made a choice to back their terrorist leaders.
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How do you rise up against a ruling party when there's a blockade and everything going in or out has to go through the ruling party?

This is why sanctions/blockades almost never spur regime change. It actually helps the dictators retain power, because it increases the dictators' ability to specify who gets what.

And that's why the blockade was stupid from the start. I predicted exactly this. The blockade made it harder to organize small scale attacks, as did their relatively new fencing. Well, it wasn't going to make the anger go away, and it wasn't going to unseat Hamas. What it would do is spur a larger attack.

I think Israel knows it too, which is why their plan is to make the blockade obsolete by ethnically cleaning the area.
 
RaiGuy said:
10/7 also doesn’t happen without years of Israeli occupation, blockade, and mistreatment/killing of Palestinians
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The occupation and blockade aren't necessary if Israel lived next door to sane, reasonable people. As it turns out, they live next door to a group of people who have expressed, in writing, their intent to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
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