Iran War and Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

MendotoManteo

MendotoManteo

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Let me start this by stating some things about myself:

1. I grew up in a very religious household. Very conservative. And I've read the entire Bible. While somethings are lost to my memory, I remember enough about what I actually read to at least hold up in a general debate. I am an atheist now and have been for nearly 20 years.
2. The Book of Revelations has always worried me. First, because I used to believe it. Then, second (after I no longer believed it), because I thought it had the potential to convince people of things that were not necessary. And to make them do horrible things.

I am not claiming this is the "End Times." But with the way this administration and Israel has handled this (and are apt to handle this), I am increasingly worried about those who believe in the Apocalypse, as defined by the Book of Revelations. Hegseth seems to be a true believer. Like he's in a holy war. Even if just a performance, it doesn't matter. Because many will believe him and/or just follow along with the Cult of Trump.

This is a very serious situation. We know that self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing. Otherwise, the definition wouldn't show up when we search for it online.

Please, if you know anyone who truly believes in the Book of Revelations, let me know how you talk with them. Should we even talk with them? Is it worthwhile? Can we talk them back down?
 
Apologies for the quibble, but it's Revelation, singular.

And, no, you probably can't talk down true believers. Revelation is obviously--and I mean fucking obviously--a political allegory railing against Roman rule that I don't know how anyone could conclude otherwise. Perversely, it's the only New Testament text that does not cozy up to empire--the gospels hate on (other) Jews because it's easier and less dangerous than hating on Romans.

But, at the same time, it's a disgusting fantasy (at least in parts) about denigrating political enemies in the most dehumanizing ways.
 
breepf said:
Apologies for the quibble, but it's Revelation, singular.

And, no, you probably can't talk down true believers. Revelation is obviously--and I mean fucking obviously--a political allegory railing against Roman rule that I don't know how anyone could conclude otherwise. Perversely, it's the only New Testament text that does not cozy up to empire--the gospels hate on (other) Jews because it's easier and less dangerous than hating on Romans.

But, at the same time, it's a disgusting fantasy (at least in parts) about denigrating political enemies in the most dehumanizing ways.
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Thank you! You're right about the title. I've always just gone with my backwoods title in the plural. Lol. As a boy.

What's your story, provided you're willing to share? I see what you mean about even the Gospels. And Empire. I've never thought of it that way.
 
Social Media from my home county - going around a week ago…

“You guys watching Israel?!

The Bible says the first time God destroyed the earth by water and he promised to never do that again. (The real meaning of the Rainbow) he went on to say I will destroy it by fire the second time. I won’t even pretend I understand all of the book of Revelation, but I do understand quite plainly that I do wish to spend eternity in Heaven. I have been hearing about the second coming of Christ and the events unfolding since I was a child. The "Mark of the Beast" Artificial Intelligence, microchips, no cash/digital currency, total government dependency/control. When we are raising a family, working long hours, some two jobs, lots of things go unnoticed or just get ignored. No one can comprehend how bad it will be, but we see it happening, bit by bit, on the news everyday. While the devil is preparing people for the Anti Christ, God is preparing people for the Rapture. I don’t know when the rapture will take place but I know that I’m not planning to be left behind when that trumpet sounds! I also believe right now that God is giving us a chance to turn our lives around and live according to His will. We need to get the Gospel message out! Until the good Lord calls me away from this world to go home, I want to make it clear that I believe in Jesus Christ as the one and only true Lord and Savior. Despite the fact that I am human, and I fail a lot, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

This is the best challenge I have seen on Facebook, so if the Holy Spirit moves you and you’re not ashamed, just COPY, and make this your status update. I’m a believer in God The Father, Jesus The Son, and The Holy Ghost- Amen.”
 
breepf said:
Apologies for the quibble, but it's Revelation, singular.

And, no, you probably can't talk down true believers. Revelation is obviously--and I mean fucking obviously--a political allegory railing against Roman rule that I don't know how anyone could conclude otherwise. Perversely, it's the only New Testament text that does not cozy up to empire--the gospels hate on (other) Jews because it's easier and less dangerous than hating on Romans.

But, at the same time, it's a disgusting fantasy (at least in parts) about denigrating political enemies in the most dehumanizing ways.
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+1. Growing up in a country Southern Baptist church I heard plenty growing up about the End Times, the Rapture, the Antichrist, and all the rest. In fact, it's not too much to say that it's one of the favorite topics of fundie Southern Baptists, along with how if you have premarital sex you're going to hell (but they all still do it anyway). It wasn't until I grew older that I learned that the "Rapture" is actually a relatively recent idea in Christianity (as opposed to the Second Coming, which is different).

And I do think it's definitely true that in right-wing Christian churches the whole Rapture and End Times story is really just a revenge fantasy where Republican Jesus takes all of his conservative (now we call them MAGA) followers into heaven and leaves everyone else behind (including Catholics in most versions) to suffer horrific torment at the hands of the Antichrist and then God himself as he "judges" them for the sin of not being fundamentalist right-wing Christians. It's revenge porn in that all of the Religious Right's perceived enemies - scientists, "experts", snooty college professors, non-Religious Right Christians - are all proven to be wrong about everything, and fundie Christians are proven to be right about everything. The whole Left Behind series of books that were so popular about 15 to 20 years ago is classic example of that mindset.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
+1. Growing up in a country Southern Baptist church I heard plenty growing up about the End Times, the Rapture, the Antichrist, and all the rest. In fact, it's not too much to say that it's one of the favorite topics of fundie Southern Baptists, along with how if you have premarital sex you're going to hell (but they all still do it anyway). It wasn't until I grew older that I learned that the "Rapture" is actually a relatively recent idea in Christianity (as opposed to the Second Coming, which is different).

And I do think it's definitely true that in right-wing Christian churches the whole Rapture and End Times story is really just a revenge fantasy where Republican Jesus takes all of his conservative (now we call them MAGA) followers into heaven and leaves everyone else behind (including Catholics in most versions) to suffer horrific torment at the hands of the Antichrist and then God himself as he "judges" them for the sin of not being fundamentalist right-wing Christians. It's revenge porn in that all of the Religious Right's perceived enemies - scientists, "experts", snooty college professors, non-Religious Right Christians - are all proven to be wrong about everything, and fundie Christians are proven to be right about everything. The whole Left Behind series of books that were so popular about 15 to 20 years ago is classic example of that mindset.
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I think the OP is right to be worried that the Trump admin is going to LARP the apocalypse into existence. LARPing is the first Christian tradition: after all, Jesus was LARPing the (Hebrew) Scripture too.
 
donbosco said:
Alas, down in #DeepChatham trump as the modern Cyrus (Isaiah 44-45) is setting the stage.
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Somebody needs to tell them that Cyrus was damned near the original DEI guy and that freeing the Jews was both DEI and an effort to get a bunch of riffraff and tax dodgers (essentially) out of his hair.

Iirc, only a couple of thousand were in captivity and most were from the ruling class and from Jerusalem. They "forgot" to pay tribute repeatedly and got hauled off as punishment. Cyrus decided he was better off without them.
 
farce© said:
When the roll is called up yonder….
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Actually like that song.

I attended a liberal Presbyterian church for a while and liked it but the music just wasn’t as good as the Baptist hymns I grew up with.

That said, having to stand up and sing (or in my case pretend to do so) is one of the things I disliked about church. It should be socially acceptable for those of us who don’t like that to just sit and listen. I’ve long maintained that church services are designed to appeal to those who like to sing, and that those people are far more likely to remain in the church.
 
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"Apologies for the quibble, but it's Revelation, singular."

In WNC it's plural. Just like "cents" is singular around these parts.

As in a convenience store:
"That'll be $3 dollars and 27 cent."
"Ma'am, that's 27 cents..."
"That's what I said.... twenty seven cent"
 
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