Is this why Dem’s Approval Rating Polls are so bad?

[Mulberry Heel]

4) It's not that I don't think folks in rural communities won't help their neighbors, it's that I think they tend to be really, really narrowly biased about who is their "neighbor". Most of the ones I know would give their neighbor the shirt off their back and would provide significant resources to help their neighbor...but they don't see the black/brown person, the LGBTQ person, or other marginalized folks at their "neighbor". They tend to live in very, very homogenous neighborhoods surrounded by folks like themselves and so the black/brown, LGBTQ, and other folks are viewed as outsiders and therefore not deserving of their help. It's not that most of conservative working class folks won't help their neighbor fix their car or that they disagree their kid or the kid next door should be able to go to the doctor without going bankrupt; it's that they don't care if the black man that lives 10 miles away in a different neighborhood gets his car fixed and they certainly don't care if his kid gets to go to doctor without him going bankrupt. I work in the non-profit sector in smaller NC counties and a major thing I repeatedly hear is about how "those people" take all the resources and "don't leave help for those that really need it"...and if you ask a few questions, "those people" are inevitably folks who don't look, believe, and behave like the speaker. One of the things that amazes me most about a large number of Christians, largely conservatives ones, is how they inevitably miss the point of the story of the Good Samaritan. It could not be any clearer, but nearly all the ones I know either never get it or completely ignore it. And it could not be clearer how much they miss it when you look at their voting patterns and see how they inevitably choose to be the Priest & Levite in that story rather than the Samartian.

As someone who also grew up in rural, small-town NC (in the foothills) I can say that this is also 100% my experience in dealing with working-class rural white Trumpers and Republicans generally. My parents and some relatives still live in my old hometown, and so I still have frequent contact with these people. And they do see themselves as kindly people who love to help their neighbors - as long as said neighbors look like them and think like them and come from the same demographic group (tribe, really) as they are. Once you move beyond that group, though, their compassion and concern quickly disappears. The community I grew up in was remarkably homogeneous - nearly all white, native-born (as in born and raised in that area), Baptist, and with few outsiders of any kind. And those are the people they care about and are comfortable being with. Once you move beyond that narrow group their friendliness and interest tends to evaporate and is replaced by suspicion, awkwardness, and even fear. And yes, they do talk often (usually based on what they see and hear on Fox News) about how dangerous and fearsome the world outside their little community or region is - too many immigrants and minorities and people who are not like them, nobody goes to church apparently, big cities are dangerous, crime-ridden hellholes, and so on. And "those people" need to be kept under control by police and have their welfare cut because they're living it up on welfare while good people like them are struggling to get by. It's like a broken record, really.

 

[mpaer]

As someone who also grew up in rural, small-town NC (in the foothills) I can say that this is also 100% my experience in dealing with working-class rural white Trumpers and Republicans generally. My parents and some relatives still live in my old hometown, and so I still have frequent contact with these people. And they do see themselves as kindly people who love to help their neighbors - as long as said neighbors look like them and think like them and come from the same demographic group (tribe, really) as they are. Once you move beyond that group, though, their compassion and concern quickly disappears. The community I grew up in was remarkably homogeneous - nearly all white, native-born (as in born and raised in that area), Baptist, and with few outsiders of any kind. And those are the people they care about and are comfortable being with. Once you move beyond that narrow group their friendliness and interest tends to evaporate and is replaced by suspicion, awkwardness, and even fear. And yes, they do talk often (usually based on what they see and hear on Fox News) about how dangerous and fearsome the world outside their little community or region is - too many immigrants and minorities and people who are not like them, nobody goes to church apparently, big cities are dangerous, crime-ridden hellholes, and so on. And "those people" need to be kept under control by police and have their welfare cut because they're living it up on welfare while good people like them are struggling to get by. It's like a broken record, really.

And these folks represent a LOT of voting precincts-magnified greatly by Gerrymandering...

 

[Paine]

As someone who also grew up in rural, small-town NC (in the foothills) I can say that this is also 100% my experience in dealing with working-class rural white Trumpers and Republicans generally. My parents and some relatives still live in my old hometown, and so I still have frequent contact with these people. And they do see themselves as kindly people who love to help their neighbors - as long as said neighbors look like them and think like them and come from the same demographic group (tribe, really) as they are. Once you move beyond that group, though, their compassion and concern quickly disappears. The community I grew up in was remarkably homogeneous - nearly all white, native-born (as in born and raised in that area), Baptist, and with few outsiders of any kind. And those are the people they care about and are comfortable being with. Once you move beyond that narrow group their friendliness and interest tends to evaporate and is replaced by suspicion, awkwardness, and even fear. And yes, they do talk often (usually based on what they see and hear on Fox News) about how dangerous and fearsome the world outside their little community or region is - too many immigrants and minorities and people who are not like them, nobody goes to church apparently, big cities are dangerous, crime-ridden hellholes, and so on. And "those people" need to be kept under control by police and have their welfare cut because they're living it up on welfare while good people like them are struggling to get by. It's like a broken record, really.

I don’t disagree with the description. I disagree with the implication that this is permanent. If rural white working-class voters were truly unreachable, the Populists, the CIO, and the civil rights-labor coalitions of the past would never have existed. The problem isn’t the people, it’s the loss of organizing, storytelling, and political structures that used to make solidarity tangible. That’s what we need to rebuild. Writing people off is easier. Fighting for them is harder, but it’s what movement politics demands.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

Any political party has to win the middle.

When you see someone with an American flag, you know they aren’t Democrats.

When you see someone with a tshirt that supports the military, not Democrats.

When you see someone saying the country is evil and a huge problem for the world, Democrats.

Rightly or wrongly, these things do not capture the middle. The Democrats come off as a party that doesn’t like where they live.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Any political party has to win the middle.

When you see someone with an American flag, you know they aren’t Democrats.

When you see someone with a tshirt that supports the military, not Democrats.

When you see someone saying the country is evil and a huge problem for the world, Democrats.

Rightly or wrongly, these things do not capture the middle. The Democrats come off as a party that doesn’t like where they live.

Oh, bullshit. I see plenty of Democrats who fly the American flag, Trumpers hardly have a monopoly on the American flag. And I know plenty of military vets who are Democrats and proudly wear their uniforms and such when it's appropriate. And plenty of Trumpers complain about the country all the time, especially when Democrats are in office. Trump himself has said the country was going to hell under Biden (or would have under Hillary or Kamala) and that if he didn't win then the country was finished. Republicans trash America all the time whenever a Democrat is in office. And using your analogy what do all those Trumpers who fly the Confederate flag indicate? Neither Republicans nor Democrats have a monopoly on these sorts of things, unless you're a Republican (not the middle, but a Republican) who is looking for something to justify your dislike of Democrats.

 

[UNCMSinLS]

I don’t disagree with the description. I disagree with the implication that this is permanent. If rural white working-class voters were truly unreachable, the Populists, the CIO, and the civil rights-labor coalitions of the past would never have existed. The problem isn’t the people, it’s the loss of organizing, storytelling, and political structures that used to make solidarity tangible. That’s what we need to rebuild. Writing people off is easier. Fighting for them is harder, but it’s what movement politics demands.

You sound like my son.

 

[Paine]

You sound like my son.

This attitude is becoming increasingly prevalent among young people on the left, and I’m very heartened by that. It’s the only way forward, IMO.

 

[farce©]

I don’t disagree with the description. I disagree with the implication that this is permanent. If rural white working-class voters were truly unreachable, the Populists, the CIO, and the civil rights-labor coalitions of the past would never have existed. The problem isn’t the people, it’s the loss of organizing, storytelling, and political structures that used to make solidarity tangible. That’s what we need to rebuild. Writing people off is easier. Fighting for them is harder, but it’s what movement politics demands.

The rural white southern working class was never organized, and there was sure as hell no civil rights-labor coalitions in the communities Snoop and Mulberry are describing. In the Piedmont mill town where I grew up, there was no dirtier word than “union.”

 

[Paine]

The rural white southern working class was never organized, and there was sure as hell no civil rights-labor coalitions in the communities Snoop and Mulberry are describing. In the Piedmont mill town where I grew up, there was no dirtier word than “union.”

That’s not accurate. The southern working class, white and Black, was organized, especially in the textile and tobacco industries. The CIO ran major campaigns in North Carolina, like Operation Dixie. They didn’t succeed, but not because people were inherently anti-union. They faced brutal repression, red-baiting, and race-baiting from employers and local elites who knew exactly how dangerous working-class solidarity could be.

Saying they were “never organized” is a way of equating failure with absence. But that erases the real history of struggle. There were civil rights-labor coalitions. Groups like the Highlander Folk School, the Southern Conference Educational Fund, and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference worked with unions, organizers, and rural people across race lines. The Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was a civil rights-labor coalition. So was the Poor People’s Campaign. Racism fractured many of these efforts, but that only proves how powerful they were, not how futile.

You’re mistaking hostility to unions or outsiders as proof of ingrained cultural reaction, when it’s actually proof of how thoroughly the emotional terrain of politics has been shaped by decades of propaganda, repression, and disinvestment. These attitudes weren’t inevitable; they were produced. And that means they can be changed.

We don’t have to romanticize the past. But we do need to remember that working-class people, even in hostile terrain, have shown again and again that they can organize, change, and fight for each other. The idea that it’s never happened is just wrong. And it quietly justifies not trying.

 

[farce©]

You’re mistaking hostility to unions or outsiders as proof of ingrained cultural reaction, when it’s actually proof of how thoroughly the emotional terrain of politics has been shaped by decades of propaganda, repression, and disinvestment. These attitudes weren’t inevitable; they were produced. And that means they can be changed.

We don’t have to romanticize the past. But we do need to remember that working-class people, even in hostile terrain, have shown again and again that they can organize, change, and fight for each other. The idea that it’s never happened is just wrong. And it quietly justifies not trying.

I’m not arguing why or how it happened, I’m saying the hostility to organized labor anywhere south of West Virginia coal mines was real, particularly in the textile and furniture industries. The exception was Alabama, the most unionized state in the south, thanks to the steel industry in Birmingham and the shipbuilding and port workers in Mobile.

 

[Paine]

I’m not arguing why or how it happened, I’m saying the hostility to organized labor anywhere south of West Virginia coal mines was real, particularly in the textile and furniture industries. The exception was Alabama, the most unionized state in the south, thanks to the steel industry in Birmingham and the shipbuilding and port workers in Mobile.

You’re shifting the frame. You originally claimed, flatly, that the rural white Southern working class “was never organized.” That’s not a claim about outcomes. It’s a claim about history. And it’s wrong.

Now you say you’re not arguing why or how it happened, just that anti-union hostility was real. Of course it was, and I’ve never denied that. But that hostility didn’t fall from the sky. It was actively cultivated by employers, economic elites, newspapers, and segregationists who understood exactly how dangerous solidarity could be. To say “they were never organized” is to erase the people who tried, the institutions they built, and the repression they faced. It’s a way of turning political defeat into cultural inevitability.

You cite Alabama as the exception, but North Carolina saw major CIO campaigns, in textiles, tobacco, and furniture, despite being one of the most repressive states in the country. From Operation Dixie to the Loray Mill strike, from the Southern Tenant Farmers’ Union to Black and white tobacco workers organizing together in Winston-Salem, there was struggle. It’s just that the backlash was stronger. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t real.

You’re conflating the results of that repression with some innate, immovable identity. That’s the heart of the disagreement. I’m not denying the difficulty. I’m saying it’s not fixed. And giving up on organizing people because of what elites taught them to believe is not a political strategy, it’s surrender.

 

[farce©]

Attempting to organize and succeeding in that effort are two very different things.

 

[Paine]

Attempting to organize and succeeding in that effort are two very different things.

Right, and your original claim erased even the attempts. That’s the issue. Saying the rural southern white working class was “never organized” isn’t a statement about outcomes, it’s a statement that wipes away history. It ignores the actual people who fought and bled to try. Whether they succeeded or not is important, but pretending they didn’t try is a way of justifying not trying again. That’s the real disagreement here.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

Oh, bullshit. I see plenty of Democrats who fly the American flag, Trumpers hardly have a monopoly on the American flag. And I know plenty of military vets who are Democrats and proudly wear their uniforms and such when it's appropriate. And plenty of Trumpers complain about the country all the time, especially when Democrats are in office. Trump himself has said the country was going to hell under Biden (or would have under Hillary or Kamala) and that if he didn't win then the country was finished. Republicans trash America all the time whenever a Democrat is in office. And using your analogy what do all those Trumpers who fly the Confederate flag indicate? Neither Republicans nor Democrats have a monopoly on these sorts of things, unless you're a Republican (not the middle, but a Republican) who is looking for something to justify your dislike of Democrats.

My point remains.

If you show a swing voter a picture of a person waving an American flag and ask what party they are - 80% would say Republican.

If you show the same voter a picture of someone saying I support the military - 80% would say Republican.

If you hear someone say that fundamentally this country is evil and wicked - 80% would think Democrat.

You can give examples singularly but there’s no doubt I’m right and that’s the problem with the party.

 

[CFordUNC]

Any political party has to win the middle.

When you see someone with an American flag, you know they aren’t Democrats.

When you see someone with a tshirt that supports the military, not Democrats.

When you see someone saying the country is evil and a huge problem for the world, Democrats.

Rightly or wrongly, these things do not capture the middle. The Democrats come off as a party that doesn’t like where they live.

Shut the fuck up, lynch. You are a fucking dipshit. I vote Democratic these days and not only do I fly an American flag on the front of my house, I have a triangular-folded American flag proudly in a case in my home office, I have my late grandfathers' and my KIA cousin's Army dogtags all displayed next to it, and I have a U.S. Naval Academy flag on the wall in my home office from my time there. I love the United States of America and the United States armed forces as much as any red-blooded sister-fucking patriotic-cosplaying conservative. There are plenty more Democrats, centrists, and independents like me out there who feel the exact same. Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit.

 

[CFordUNC]

Just a reminder for everyone that HintonJamesHeel joined IC in late November 2023, which was incidentally the same exact time that lynch34 pussied out of the ZZLP. If you ever get to wondering why HintonJamesHeel's posts sound so fucking stupid and eerily similar to how stupid lynch34's sounded, now you know why!

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

NY Times reporter
In the briefing, Hegseth referred to B-2 pilots as "our boys on those bombers," yet both men and women have trained to fly them.

That’s why Democrats lose. Everything is looked at in the oddest way.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

Shut the fuck up, lynch. You are a fucking dipshit. I vote Democratic these days and not only do I fly an American flag on the front of my house, I have a triangular-folded American flag proudly in a case in my home office, I have my late grandfathers' and my KIA cousin's Army dogtags all displayed next to it, and I have a U.S. Naval Academy flag on the wall in my home office from my time there. I love the United States of America and the United States armed forces as much as any red-blooded sister-fucking patriotic-cosplaying conservative. There are plenty more Democrats, centrists, and independents like me out there who feel the exact same. Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit.

lol - who are you? I have no clue.

 

[CFordUNC]

lol - who are you? I have no clue.

Thanks for proving my point, lynch. That's exactly the kind of stupid bullshit you used to say under your old username, too. And I'll tell you who I am. I'm someone who thinks that anyone who changes usernames on a message board community is a pussy of the highest magnitude and worthy of derision.

 

[superrific]

When you see someone with a tshirt that supports the military, not Democrats.

It's true that we have better fashion sense than that. Won't argue there.