Israel Hamas War | Ceasefire Deal between Israel & Hamas

[2ManyBlueCups]

1. Actually, I do not think the Bush administration cared at all about killing civilians. That's because the war effort was being run by Rumsfeld and Cheney. It certainly wasn't the case in Vietnam, which was run by Robert McNamara. Those three guys had a lot in common, personality-wide (and intellectually as well).

2. The US and NATO carried out an operation in Kosovo that basically destroyed the Serbian military's ability to wage war. Milosevic's government collapsed shortly thereafter, and Milosevic himself was arrested and tried before the UN's criminal tribunal. The total civilian death count was . . . about 500. And that was an operation against an actual army, that had actual military weapons -- not stupid rockets that hit nothing.

3. There are 40M people who live in Afghanistan. There are about 2 million Gazans. So about 1 out of 1000 Afghan civilians died from collateral damage from the US forces over 20 years. In one year, more than 1 in 50 Gazans have lost their lives.

Congratulations, you just figured out that conducting warfare in a dense urban environment is more costly on the populace there than conducting warfare in a rural one. The death toll in Gaza can largely be blamed on Hamas, which openly admits that it is trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. Why this fact is conveniently ignored escapes me. I guess it is just hard to criticize a terrorist group these days.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Wait! Someone is governing Gaza?

Yup. Hamas.

 

[RaiGuy]

Those are the only options? But whatever Hamas and Al Jazeera say must be 100% true, right? I hate to tell you this my friend, but you are hopelessly brainwashed. I’m one who trusts our own intelligence services over Hamas, but you may feel differently. And Biden admitted that he misspoke. I suppose a baby being lit on fire and burned alive is totally fine in your book since it wasn’t beheaded.

We’ve been over the hospital attack numerous times. The only evidence you have that it was Israel is the word of Hamas. Unfortunately for you, forensic evidence, photo and video evidence, and every western intelligence service seem to believe otherwise.

Aljazeera does a much better covering this than any of the western media outlets. Also, you keep putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hamas is 100% true. Also, I was referring to Biden spitting back the conspiracy theory that 40 babies were beheaded. While tragically, 2 infants were killed, it wasn't the 40 beheaded babies that an Israeli reporter admitted to fabricating.

As for the hospital, tell me who gathered the forensic evidence? I will ask this question again that you keep ignoring. Why weren't there external investigators that are typically involved in situations like this? You keep repeating yourself but don't bother to respond to questions.

 

[4thgenheel]

Genuine question: do you really think Hamas is just one guy?

A precision strike would kill one person. It would do nothing about the tens of thousands of Hamas fighters inside Gaza.

JFC, dude. i'm not even going to dignify that idiocy with a response.

the fact that you still aren't picking up the clear and obvious implication of the tehran strike vis a vis mossad/idf/israel's broader capabilities is mind numbing.

and israel's non precision strikes are killing one hamas operative......and 10-20 civilians.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Aljazeera does a much better covering this than any of the western media outlets. Also, you keep putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hamas is 100% true. Also, I was referring to Biden spitting back the conspiracy theory that 40 babies were beheaded. While tragically, 2 infants were killed, it wasn't the 40 beheaded babies that an Israeli reporter admitted to fabricating.

As for the hospital, tell me who gathered the forensic evidence? I will ask this question again that you keep ignoring. Why weren't there external investigators that are typically involved in situations like this? You keep repeating yourself but don't bother to respond to questions.

The evidence (or lack thereof) from the hospital was clear as day. Despite Hamas claims of thousands killed and the hospital being “destroyed”, the photos and video from the scene showed no damage at all to the hospital aside from a broken window. No crater. No bomb fragments. And a death toll revised to “maybe 50”. At the same time, evidence emerged of PIJ firing a rocket towards the hospital literally moments before the hospital was struck. People who get paid way more than you or I and who work for agencies that have three letters in the name analyze things like that for a living, and all independently came to the same conclusion: Israel had nothing to do with it.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

JFC, dude. i'm not even going to dignify that idiocy with a response.

the fact that you still aren't picking up the clear and obvious implication of the tehran strike vis a vis mossad/idf/israel's broader capabilities is mind numbing.

and israel's non precision strikes are killing one hamas operative......and 10-20 civilians.

Do you not understand that Hamas finds it harder to hide behind civilians in, say, Tehran than in Gaza?

I’ll put it to you another way. Let’s say a hospital employs two surgeons. 99.95% of Surgeon A’s patients are still alive 30 days after their surgery. 70% of Surgeon B’s patients are still alive 30 days after their surgery. Should the hospital fire Surgeon B and just use Surgeon A? What if I told you that Surgeon A performed laparoscopic knee surgery all day every day and Surgeon B was a trauma surgeon?

Just because Israel was able to do a surgical strike one time with no collateral damage does not mean that every single strike can be surgical. Just like not every surgery can be a controlled outpatient procedure, scheduled in advance by the patient and the surgeon.

 

[RaiGuy]

The evidence (or lack thereof) from the hospital was clear as day. Despite Hamas claims of thousands killed and the hospital being “destroyed”, the photos and video from the scene showed no damage at all to the hospital aside from a broken window. No crater. No bomb fragments. And a death toll revised to “maybe 50”. At the same time, evidence emerged of PIJ firing a rocket towards the hospital literally moments before the hospital was struck. People who get paid way more than you or I and who work for agencies that have three letters in the name analyze things like that for a living, and all independently came to the same conclusion: Israel had nothing to do with it.

Here is a link from February from a research group in London about the bombing: Forensic Architecture. Basically, they are stating that without more evidence, it is inconclusive, but Israel did spread disinformation immediately after the attack.

I also don't get why you are fixated by one questionable incident (in which you STILL haven't answered why they don't allow outside investigators), and you justify Israel destroying all the other hospitals because you believe the bullshit that Hamas uses all of them.

 

[ZenMode]

There is pretty much no evidence of the Bibi regime giving a fuck about Palestinians. To the extent that they give the appearance, it's only because they fear being cut off by America, which has apparently has a huge but presumably not unlimited tolerance for IDF atrocities.

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 2,200,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong, I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

 

[4thgenheel]

Do you not understand that Hamas finds it harder to hide behind civilians in, say, Tehran than in Gaza?

you really think that hamas is that much more cunning and strategic than apparently wildly reckless, incompetent mossad/IDF/israel?

tehran is just one example. again, try to extrapolate the events there and in other mossad actions.

mossad/idf/israel are capable of much more precision than what they're showing in gaza. they just don't care about palestinians. the casualties are the point. they want beach front condos for israelis in gaza and palestinian people gone.

 

[4thgenheel]

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 600,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong. No info was easily found, so I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

2+ million prior to 10/7/23 seems to be the consensus.

How Big is Gaza? - Anera

Gaza has the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population, with some 2.23 million residents of the small territory.

www.anera.org

Topic: Gaza Strip

Discover all statistics and data on Gaza Strip now on statista.com!

www.statista.com

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians

 

[RaiGuy]

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 600,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong, I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

Your numbers aren't correct. First, the population of Gaza was estimated to be around 2 million with nearly half of them under the age of 18.

The number killed in Gaza is likely way over 40,000 as many are still buried under buildings and haven't been counted in the final death toll. It also doesn't count the ones that died from starvation or preventable diseases.

Also, on Oct 7th, the number of civilians killed was 815, the rest were Israeli soldiers.

 

[ZenMode]

2+ million prior to 10/7/23 seems to be the consensus.

How Big is Gaza? - Anera

Gaza has the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population, with some 2.23 million residents of the small territory.

www.anera.org

Topic: Gaza Strip

Discover all statistics and data on Gaza Strip now on statista.com!

www.statista.com

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians

Thanks. At 141sq/mi, it would have to be over 2 million to be at 15,000 per sq/mi.

 

[ZenMode]

Your numbers aren't correct. First, the population of Gaza was estimated to be around 2 million with nearly half of them under the age of 18.

The number killed in Gaza is likely way over 40,000 as many are still buried under buildings and haven't been counted in the final death toll. It also doesn't count the ones that died from starvation or preventable diseases.

Also, on Oct 7th, the number of civilians killed was 815, the rest were Israeli soldiers.

Even with your numbers, it doesn't change the overall picture. Israel, given the weapons at their disposal and given the population density of Gaza, could be easily killing thousands, if not tens of thousands, per day.

 

[Awinisawin]

When Israel took away hamas’ leverage by continuing with all this destruction, it left hamas with no way out of this situation in a sense. no way to save face. Given that these are two enemies that hate each other, what did anyone expect to happen here? Netanyahoo is as much to blame for their deaths as anyone. Definitely a bully who operates on an all or none principle, certainly not a politician or a political leader.

Regardless of who started what and when.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Probably when someone other than Hamas governs Gaza. Not really rocket science.

So, an organizational name change would solve the problem?

 

[RaiGuy]

Even with your numbers, it doesn't change the overall picture. Israel, given the weapons at their disposal and given the population density of Gaza, could be easily killing thousands, if not tens of thousands, per day.

They could also have much lower numbers if they used the precision weapons. The only reason they haven't killed more is because they don't want to the US to stop backing them.

 

[ZenMode]

They could also have much lower numbers if they used the precision weapons. The only reason they haven't killed more is because they don't want to the US to stop backing them.

They are using precision weapons. Precision weapons, when the enemy is using civilians and civilian buildings as protection, can only do so much.

"The only reason they haven't killed more is because they don't want to the US to stop backing them."

That's your opinion, not a fact. Israel has been attacked repeatedly. I don't recall seeing a past response that made me believe they aren't concerned about civilian deaths.

 

[RaiGuy]

They are using precision weapons. Precision weapons, when the enemy is using civilians and civilian buildings as protection, can only do so much.

"The only reason they haven't killed more is because they don't want to the US to stop backing them."

That's your opinion, not a fact. Israel has been attacked repeatedly. I don't recall seeing a past response that made me believe they aren't concerned about civilian deaths.

Have you seen the footage of the aftermath of one of their bombs? There is nothing precise about it. They are destroying city blocks and everything inside. Compare that with the attacks they did inside Lebanon and Syria where they bombed a single apartment while the building was still in tact. They want to maximize damage, both to structures and civilians.

 

[ZenMode]

Have you seen the footage of the aftermath of one of their bombs? There is nothing precise about it. They are destroying city blocks and everything inside. Compare that with the attacks they did inside Lebanon and Syria where they bombed a single apartment while the building was still in tact. They want to maximize damage, both to structures and civilians.

They can use precise bombs when they know precisely where someone is, as was the case when they killed the Hezbollah (?) guy in Iran when he was sitting in his room. That is the exception, not the rule in war.

Israel has been dropping thousands of leaflets warning people to leave certain areas. They're sending texts and voice messages and posting maps on social media to evacuate people from areas where they'll be bombing.

As I said earlier, civilian deaths (how ever many have happened) are terrible, but the expectations on Israel are completely unrealistic given the situation they are in.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Here is a link from February from a research group in London about the bombing: Forensic Architecture. Basically, they are stating that without more evidence, it is inconclusive, but Israel did spread disinformation immediately after the attack.

I also don't get why you are fixated by one questionable incident (in which you STILL haven't answered why they don't allow outside investigators), and you justify Israel destroying all the other hospitals because you believe the bullshit that Hamas uses all of them.

Outside investigators weren’t allowed because Israel wasn’t in control of the hospital at the time; Hamas was.

Hamas using hospitals, schools, and residential facilities for military purposes isn’t bullshit. It has been well documented for years, even by the UN.