Israel Hamas War | Saudis warn Trump on Qatar

[ZenMode]

There is an extensive scholarly literature on the effectiveness of sanctions, including blockades. You don't know it, but I do. The unambiguous result of that research is the finding that sanctions are usually counterproductive. They don't defeat the regime they are imposed against; they strengthen it, because now the rulers control all commerce. This has been true in Iran, North Korea, Syria, Russia of course, etc.

If Israel had not blockaded, if Israel had let Gaza develop, there would likely not have been a 10/7. Hamas would not have had a stranglehold on the entire region, as other centers of financial power would emerge. The reason that the imported supplies were used for weapons is that they couldn't be used for anything else. Literally, if you're smuggling in pipes, you can't use the pipes to build, oh I don't know, a factory because then people will ask where'd you get the pipes. The only place the pipes can be used is in the tunnels to build weapons. Absent the blockade, that would not have been true.

Hamas are bastards but they were never strong until the blockade. Israel made them more powerful than they had ever been.

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, the blockade was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

So, that being the case, what should Israel do when Hamas, who has already attacked them for decades, now runs the government of the territory and isn't just acting as a terrorist organization within Gaza?

 

[superrific]

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, it was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

It doesn't matter whether you disagree. The ineffectiveness of sanctions and blockades are facts. They are not always ineffective, and not for every purpose -- but their track record in producing regime change is very poor.

It was not a result of Hamas coming into power. It was a result of Hamas running in an election. One reason they won is that the Palestinians were resentful of Israel's threats. Think of it like MAGAs and Trump's indictments, except the Palestinians had real gripes and not just manufactured outrage.

The other subtext here is that Israel's wall on the Gaza border was an inspiration to the MAGA wall-builders. They used to point to the effectiveness of that wall, in order to justify their own stupid ideas. Well, the wall failed, because of course it failed, and that makes MAGA angry.

 

[ZenMode]

It doesn't matter whether you disagree. The ineffectiveness of sanctions and blockades are facts. They are not always ineffective, and not for every purpose -- but their track record in producing regime change is very poor.

Based on scholarly research, you believe that Israel, that had been attacked by Hamas for decades, would have been better off allowing Hamas to their own devices? You believe Israel and ITS civilians would be safer allowing a terrorist organization absolute freedom to import any/all weapons they wanted, to plan and execute any/all attacks they wanted? You believe a terrorist organization would stop terrorizing with more power and resources?

If that truly what you believe, then we can simply agree to disagree.

 

[ChileG]

'Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza'

Yes because Israel is among those in civilized culture that has developed and defined the concept of "war crimes". Israel has and will seek to punish its soldiers for war crimes. When do you think Hamas will investigate its fighters for war crimes? Right around "not a chance in hell" because war crimes are their fucking M.O. because they uncivilized, immoral POS.

Wait, did you just hand wave away past and current atrocities because you are of the opinion that Israel will one day seek to punish those responsible (who are by and large not “soldiers”).

 

[Duke Mu]

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, the blockade was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

So, that being the case, what should Israel do when Hamas, who has already attacked them for decades, now runs the government of the territory and isn't just acting as a terrorist organization within Gaza?

The people in Gaza did vote for Hamas in 2006, then Hamas + blockade resulted in the establishment of an authoritarian terrorist state. Bibi and Israel not only let it happened, but poured gasoline on the fire.

That's because Palestine has not existed since 1948 and has been a terrorist state since 1962 (PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, PA). Israel and the UN let it happen. Jordan and Egypt owned the WB and Gaza from 1948-1967 until they were foolish enough to attack Israel again.

The peace deal Biden, Egypt, Jordan, Saudis, Qatar proposed was a reasonable one. An Arab Coalition with US support would set up a 2nd Arab/Palestinian State. The government would be overseen by the coalition. Training wheels would be on for a decade or longer. Many of the same post WWII strategies used in Germany and Japan would be applied to create a *peaceful* Palestine state. Bibi and Trump have no interest in such a deal.

 

[superrific]

Based on scholarly research, you believe that Israel, that had been attacked by Hamas for decades, would have been better off allowing Hamas to their own devices? You believe Israel and ITS civilians would be safer allowing a terrorist organization absolute freedom to import any/all weapons they wanted, to plan and execute any/all attacks they wanted? You believe a terrorist organization would stop terrorizing with more power and resources?

If that truly what you believe, then we can simply agree to disagree.

Well, how well did the blockade work? See, that's the rub. I don't know what Israel should have done, because I'm not a strategist and my knowledge of the area is cursory. What I do know is that blockades almost never accomplish much other than impoverishing the people who live under the dictatorship.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

My son is binge watching The West Wing and they devoted several episodes to how Bartlett (POTUS) was going to broker a deal between Israel and Hamas over Gaza. Crazy.

 

[ZenMode]

Well, how well did the blockade work? See, that's the rub. I don't know what Israel should have done, because I'm not a strategist and my knowledge of the area is cursory. What I do know is that blockades almost never accomplish much other than impoverishing the people who live under the dictatorship.

We don't have a magic 8 ball to see back in time.

What do you believe?

Given that the blockade was meant too closely monitor what came in to Gaza, do you believe that leaving terrorists completely unsupervised would result in more or less attacks on Israel? Do you believe those attacks would be more or less severe?

 

[Duke Mu]

My son is binge watching The West Wing and they devoted several episodes to how Bartlett (POTUS) was going to broker a deal between Israel and Hamas over Gaza. Crazy.

SPOILER: It will cost him dearly. Multiple times.

 

[Duke Mu]

We don't have a magic 8 ball to see back in time.

What do you believe?

Given that the blockade was meant too closely monitor what came in to Gaza, do you believe that leaving terrorists completely unsupervised would result in more or less attacks on Israel? Do you believe those attacks would be more or less severe?

The blockade (a) is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. Israel had not declared war, and thus inflicted collective punishment. (b) the blockade not only built up frustration and poverty in the populace, but also forced and encouraged Hamas to build their massive underground tunnel network for smuggling and hiding weaponry.

Israel should have kept troops and sought a UN or NATO peacekeeping force in Gaza.

Bibi continued to pay to play. He supported Hamas through Qatar and allowed Hamas to lob a few missiles over on a weekly basis to remain in power.

He has isolated himself. A general election in Israel should be called to transition Netanyahu to prison.

Trump has revealed himself (again) to the world to be a doddering, arrogant, stupid fool. He can't get Putin, Bibi, and American courts to do his crazy bidding.

 

[ZenMode]

Wait, did you just hand wave away past and current atrocities because you are of the opinion that Israel will one day seek to punish those responsible (who are by and large not “soldiers”).

To answer your question: no. The discussion, at least as it started between me and RaiGuy, was about whether or not Israel is more moral than Hamas. The evidence of Israel being morally superior, at least for me, is overwhelming. Among that evidence is that a) war crimes are recognized by Israel and b) Israel has punished and will continue to seek to punish soldiers who commit war crimes.

War crimes, on the other hand, are a tactic/strategy used by Hamas fighters which are actively encouraged by leadership and will never be punished.

 

[ChileG]

To answer your question: no. The discussion, at least as it started between me and RaiGuy, was about whether or not Israel is more moral than Hamas. The evidence of Israel being morally superior, at least for me, is overwhelming. Among that evidence is that a) war crimes are recognized by Israel and b) Israel has punished and will continue to seek to punish soldiers who commit war crimes.

War crimes, on the other hand, are a tactic/strategy used by Hamas fighters which are actively encouraged by leadership and will never be punished.

I would say Israel’s war crimes have also been mandated from the very top. So, it seems we will always disagree on that point.

 

[superrific]

We don't have a magic 8 ball to see back in time.

What do you believe?

Given that the blockade was meant too closely monitor what came in to Gaza, do you believe that leaving terrorists completely unsupervised would result in more or less attacks on Israel? Do you believe those attacks would be more or less severe?

There's no blockade in Lebanon and Israel managed to cripple Hezbollah. You know, with old fashioned intelligence gathering.

There is a huge chasm between a blockade and "completely unsupervised," but of course this is what you do. You don't willingly battle except with men made from straw.

What I believe is that the blockade was (and remains so, even more) illegal under international law; that blockades are almost always ineffective in achieving anything other than modest goals; and that what Israel has been doing to Gaza is profoundly wrong. If you don't agree, that's your choice but stop trying to argue that Israel is better than Hamas by pointing to Hamas attacks from the 90s but ignore all of Israel's bullshit over that time period. The blockade was one of the biggest factors that caused 10/6.

And this is not some hindsight. When the blockade was announced, I predicted exactly this: that it would decrease small terrorist attacks but create a society completely dependent on Hamas, and Hamas would organize a larger operation in retaliation. I would take credit for this prediction except that it was hardly unique: pretty much everyone who studies these issues agreed that a massive attack was the most likely outcome.

 

[ZenMode]

I would say Israel’s war crimes have also been mandated from the very top. So, it seems we will always disagree on that point.

For example?

 

[ZenMode]

There's no blockade in Lebanon and Israel managed to cripple Hezbollah. You know, with old fashioned intelligence gathering.

Hezbollah isn't Hamas. It's clear, going back to the 80's, that Hamas is actively trying to eliminate Israel.

There is a huge chasm between a blockade and "completely unsupervised," but of course this is what you do. You don't willingly battle except with men made from straw.

Do you not support a 2-state solution? I was under the impression that you did which would give Gaza/Palestine sovereignty.

What I believe is that the blockade was (and remains so, even more) illegal under international law; that blockades are almost always ineffective in achieving anything other than modest goals; and that what Israel has been doing to Gaza is profoundly wrong. If you don't agree, that's your choice but stop trying to argue that Israel is better than Hamas by pointing to Hamas attacks from the 90s but ignore all of Israel's bullshit over that time period. The blockade was one of the biggest factors that caused 10/6.

The question of which side is morally superior is separate from the reality of what Israel has faced on a daily basis, particularly since Hamas took over Gaza, and why a blockade is necessary. There's absolutely no reason to believe the blockade caused anything. When Hamas took over Gaza, the writing was immediately on the wall, at least for those who understand how terrorists work.

Hamas' stated goal is to eliminate Israel. (see excerpt from an Atlantic article below)

It is not reasonable for Israel to not monitor what is coming into Gaza. The literal survival of Israel depends on it and it's silly to believe that extending more sovereignty to Gaza would result in anything but more frequent and more destructive attacks. The blockade didn't cause the Hamas Covenant referenced below. The blockade didn't make Hamas a terrorist organization. Hamas was a terrorist organization for 20+ years before the blockade and their goals were the same in the 80s and 90s - eliminate Israel

And this is not some hindsight. When the blockade was announced, I predicted exactly this: that it would decrease small terrorist attacks but create a society completely dependent on Hamas, and Hamas would organize a larger operation in retaliation. I would take credit for this prediction except that it was hardly unique: pretty much everyone who studies these issues agreed that a massive attack was the most likely outcome.

They are terrorists and their focus is eliminating Israel. Without a blockade, their attempts to meet their goals would only be more successful and destructive.

So, I asked before, but don't recall a complete answer. What should Israel do? If a blockade is illegal, as you're believe it is, what should they do? Just continue to let Hamas make attempt after attempt to destroy Israel?

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was, in fact, the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia), The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective, The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.

Thus, as fighting rages in Israel and Gaza, and may yet escalate and spread, pleas for moderation, restraint, negotiation, and the building of pathways to peace are destined to find no purchase with Hamas. The covenant makes clear that holy war, divinely ordained and scripturally sanctioned, is in Hamas’s DNA.Israel’s Complete and Utter Destruction

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Lest there be any doubt about Hamas’s sanguinary aims toward Israel and the Jewish people, the introduction goes on to explain:

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

Article 11 spells out why this annihilation of Jews is required. Palestine is described as an “Islamic Waqf”—an endowment predicated on Muslim religious, education, or charitable principles and therefore inviolate to any other peoples or religions. Accordingly, the territory that now encompasses Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up … This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

In sum, any compromise over this land, including the moribund two-state solution, much less coexistence among faiths and peoples, is forbidden. Holy War

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[nycfan]

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www.cnn.com

 

[nycfan]

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www.cnn.com

Four Palestinians die in storming of UN food warehouse a day after gunfire at new Gaza aid site​

“
Hundreds of Palestinians stormed a United Nations food warehouse Wednesday in Gaza in a desperate attempt to get something to eat, shouting and shoving each other and ripping off pieces of the building to get inside. Four people died in the chaos, hospital officials said.

The deaths came a day after a crowd was fired upon while overrunning a new aid-distribution sitein Gazaset up by an Israeli and U.S.-backed foundation, killing at least one Palestinian and wounding 48 others, Gaza’s Health Ministry said.

The Israeli military, which guards the site from a distance, said it fired only warning shots to control the situation. The foundation said its military contractors guarding the site did not open fire. A Red Cross field hospital said the 48 people wounded suffered gunshot wounds, including women and children.…”

——
There are a lot of (mostly right wing and/or Islamophobic) social media reports claiming this is an uprising by Gazans against Hamas (the claim being this is a warehouse of food stolen by and hoarded by Hamas).

 

[superrific]

The question of which side is morally superior is separate from the reality of what Israel has faced on a daily basis, particularly since Hamas took over Gaza, and why a blockade is necessary. There's absolutely no reason to believe the blockade caused anything. When Hamas took over Gaza, the writing was immediately on the wall, at least for those who understand how terrorists work.

It is not reasonable for Israel to not monitor what is coming into Gaza. The literal survival of Israel depends on it and it's silly to believe that extending more sovereignty to Gaza would result in anything but more frequent and more destructive attacks. The blockade didn't cause the Hamas Covenant referenced below. The blockade didn't make Hamas a terrorist organization. Hamas was a terrorist organization for 20+ years before the blockade and their goals were the same in the 80s and 90s - eliminate Israel

They are terrorists and their focus is eliminating Israel. Without a blockade, their attempts to meet their goals would only be more successful and destructive.

There is nothing in this world that you understand and I do not, so shut up with this "for those who understand how terrorists work." Again, you made a life choice not to study. I made a life choice to study. Now, after all this time, I know far more about the world than you do. No matter how many times you stroke yourself to get that full 3.5 inches, you're still not able to have a conversation on this because you don't understand the basics. Sleep in the bed you made.

Since you love to quote ChatGPT here, let's ask it whether the blockade contributed to the Hamas attacks:

Yes, the Israeli blockade of Gaza is widely viewed as one of the factors that contributed to the rise of Hamas and its attacks. The blockade, imposed in 2007 after Hamas took control of Gaza, has severely restricted the movement of people and goods, leading to economic hardship, high unemployment, and deteriorating living conditions for Palestinians.

Hamas has used the blockade—along with broader grievances about occupation, displacement, and the lack of a viable peace process—as part of its justification for armed resistance. While it doesn't excuse attacks on civilians, many analysts and observers argue that the blockade fuels desperation, radicalization, and support for militant groups.

So yes, it's part of the larger cycle. Not the only cause, but definitely a contributing one.

Again, it's just a fact that blockades simply do not have the effect that you seem to think. People have studied this. People who actually know the facts, not people spitballing on a message board. And of course you're just ignoring the effect of the blockade on capital investment.

Of course the upper leadership of Hamas wants to destroy Israel. But intent is not enough; they also need the power to do so, right? I would love to end Kim Jong Un's worthless existence but that's not really something I could do, right? Hamas' leadership is only as powerful as the size and skill of its army. Forced poverty breeds those soldiers. Lack of opportunity breeds those soldiers. Do you really think that Palestinian teenagers are running to join Hamas instead of going to university or working in a factory providing for their families? They do not. They run to join Hamas because they can't do those things and they view Israel as responsible for it.

This is the oldest story in history. Israel has no more ability to stamp out dissatisfaction than did Louis XVI. The harder a government tries to oppress, the worse it goes for them when there's a successful revolt. How did Saddam and family fare after Saddam's rule was over? Oh, yeah. The people just killed them. That's the game you play when you try to use might to make right.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

If you have to keep telling everyone else that you are the smartest person in the room, there is a good chance that you are not actually the smartest person in the room.

 

[Batt Boy]

If you have to keep telling everyone else that you are the smartest person in the room, there is a good chance that you are not actually the smartest person in the room.

I can only imagine, but since I only have him and Paine on SuperIgnore, I get to miss out. But my guess is something akin to, "you need to shut your trap" or "there is zero possibility I cannot understand something more than you" or "you are no where near my level."