Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume
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They are suffering due to a myriad of factors, but pretending that Hamas is not one of them (and not a hugely significant one of them) is ludicrous.
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Might be crazy and you could be right. That doesn't change the fact that Israel is participating in genocide.
I feel very similar to Ross Douthat about the state of the war at this point:
"Israel’s war in Gaza is not a genocide. It is a war for a just cause, the elimination of a cruel, fanatical, itself potentially genocidal terrorist organization that oppresses its own people, holds innocent hostages and will pose a severe danger to the state of Israel so long as it holds power.
The war’s heartbreaking civilian toll is inextricably linked to that terrorist government’s refusal to obey the laws of war, its unwillingness to surrender no matter how much its own people suffer, its willingness to accept famine rather than give up control of humanitarian aid, its inclination to let cease-fire negotiations spin endlessly in the apparent hope that international pressure will save it from defeat.
But despite all these realities, despite the fundamental responsibility that Hamas bears for all the horrors of the conflict it initiated on Oct. 7, 2023, Israel’s warmaking at this moment is unjust."
Gift link:
www.nytimes.com
"Israel’s war in Gaza is not a genocide. It is a war for a just cause, the elimination of a cruel, fanatical, itself potentially genocidal terrorist organization that oppresses its own people, holds innocent hostages and will pose a severe danger to the state of Israel so long as it holds power.
The war’s heartbreaking civilian toll is inextricably linked to that terrorist government’s refusal to obey the laws of war, its unwillingness to surrender no matter how much its own people suffer, its willingness to accept famine rather than give up control of humanitarian aid, its inclination to let cease-fire negotiations spin endlessly in the apparent hope that international pressure will save it from defeat.
But despite all these realities, despite the fundamental responsibility that Hamas bears for all the horrors of the conflict it initiated on Oct. 7, 2023, Israel’s warmaking at this moment is unjust."
Gift link:
Opinion | How Israel’s War Became Unjust
Even a righteous cause needs a plan to limit suffering and a reasonable path toward peace.
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Then you are a goddamned fool.
superrific
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Wrong. In both morality and law, causation doesn't work as simply as you describe. There's a concept of "but-for" cause and a different one of proximate cause.
Let's take an example. You decide for some reason to sucker punch me in the face. Since I am not a fighter, I will certainly go down quickly. Let's say you break my nose and an ambulance comes to get me and take me to the hospital for tests. En route, a cybertruck rams the ambulance head on and I die. Should you be held liable for murder? After all, if it wasn't for you punching me, I wouldn't have been in the ambulance in the first place.
But that's not how we think about it. The primary culprit is the moron driving the cybertruck while drunk. That's the person who would be charged with homicide, not you. And outside of the law, would anyone say, "that guy killed super"? Of course not. The cybertruck killed super.
Same as here. Hamas bloodied Israel's nose. Israel responded by wiping out tens of thousands. Hamas was obviously bad, but Israel is the principal cause of the suffering because it has continued with its grossly disproportionate and genocidal response.
I mean, dude, why are you defending a regime that is purposefully starving or at the very best malnourishing children?
superrific
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Has it ever occurred to you that the last bit is evidence that the first bit is ridiculous. It might be comforting to think that Israel is fighting for a just cause. But if it was, it would have stopped long ago. The fact that it proceeding genocidally (there is no real debate about that, and you might remember, or might not, that I resisted the genocide tag for quite a while after it started to enter the discourse) casts serious doubt on the actual causes.
I mean, if you listen to Putin, his war is being pursued for a just cause as well. What could possibly be bad about ridding Ukraine of its Nazi government?
Every war in modern history has been fought for a just cause, if you naively believe what the aggressor says it is doing.
Not wrong at all. Here's an example for you: If Hamas straps a suicide bomb to a kid with Down syndrome, sends that kid to a checkpoint, and blows that kid up, has Hamas harmed that kid? If the answer is "yes", then you admit that you are wrong when you say that Hamas has not harmed the Palestinian people.
Here's another one: If Hamas launches a rocket at Israel, but that rocket falls short, lands in Gaza, and kills Palestinian civilians, were those civilians harmed by Hamas?
Here's another one: If Hamas launches missiles from a busy neighborhood, and Israel returns fire and knocks out not just the launcher site but also the adjacent building, has Hamas harmed Palestinians?
Here's another one: If Hamas funnels international aid meant to help Palestinian civilians get access to food, water, and proper infrastructure, and instead uses that aid to build tunnels under apartment buildings, schools, and hospitals, has Hamas harmed Palestinians?
superrific
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I didn't say that Hamas hasn't harmed the Palestinian people. I said that it's not currently the cause of their suffering.
Duke Mu
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For Bibi and Hamas to stay in power, the killing goes on. Both sides are participating in genocide by blundercide.
Eliminating an internationally recognized terrorist group that has killed thousands of innocent civilians, that is sworn in its charter to your people's genocide, that has launched thousands upon thousands of missiles at your population centers, and that intentionally places the civilians under its own care at risk is by definition a just war. Without 10/7, this war doesn't happen. Hamas miscalculated and the Palestinians have paid the price.
You said "Palestinians are not suffering because of Hamas." This is undeniably false. Palestinians have been killed by Hamas. Are the families of those people not suffering?
Duke Mu
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Let's keep in mind that from October 7, 2023 on the purpose of Hamas' terrorist attack was to create Arab sympathy when Israel retaliated...and drive the Jews to the Sea. However, Hamas underestimated what a pain in the @$$ that the series of Palestinian terrorist proxy states/governments (PLO, PA, Hamas, Hezbollah) have been to Jordan (which occupied the West Bank from 1948 - 1967 and is part of its UN Charter) and Egypt (which took Gaza from 1948-1967). Let's not forget a Palestinian assassinated RFK Sr. (the good one). Plus Iran/Persian infiltration and support (with Russia) of Hamas and Hezbollah.
Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq are NOT coming to the aid of Hamas and Gaza. Europe isn't taking in refugees either. Y'all need to understand - as much as the Arabs hate the Jews, Arabs hate the Persians/Iranians more and vice versa.
Bibi actually financially supported Hamas for a decade so they'd lob a handful of missiles a day to keep Bibi in power. It is a SICK co-dependency.
This is a classic, historical example of how it takes very few people in power (Putin, Bibi, Trump, Hamas) to f*ck up a World.
Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq are NOT coming to the aid of Hamas and Gaza. Europe isn't taking in refugees either. Y'all need to understand - as much as the Arabs hate the Jews, Arabs hate the Persians/Iranians more and vice versa.
Bibi actually financially supported Hamas for a decade so they'd lob a handful of missiles a day to keep Bibi in power. It is a SICK co-dependency.
This is a classic, historical example of how it takes very few people in power (Putin, Bibi, Trump, Hamas) to f*ck up a World.
Ross Douthat sounds like a hype man for Bibi. Israel lost any high ground it had when it decided that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth wasn't enough. Bibi demanded an arm, and a leg, and a head, and land, and aid, and an innocent starving child. If there is any justice left in this world, Bibi will face his day in the Hague and be sentenced for his crimes against humanity.I feel very similar to Ross Douthat about the state of the war at this point:
"Israel’s war in Gaza is not a genocide. It is a war for a just cause, the elimination of a cruel, fanatical, itself potentially genocidal terrorist organization that oppresses its own people, holds innocent hostages and will pose a severe danger to the state of Israel so long as it holds power.
The war’s heartbreaking civilian toll is inextricably linked to that terrorist government’s refusal to obey the laws of war, its unwillingness to surrender no matter how much its own people suffer, its willingness to accept famine rather than give up control of humanitarian aid, its inclination to let cease-fire negotiations spin endlessly in the apparent hope that international pressure will save it from defeat.
But despite all these realities, despite the fundamental responsibility that Hamas bears for all the horrors of the conflict it initiated on Oct. 7, 2023, Israel’s warmaking at this moment is unjust."
Gift link:Opinion | How Israel’s War Became Unjust
Even a righteous cause needs a plan to limit suffering and a reasonable path toward peace.
- Messages
- 1,513
At what point in your mind is the price being exacted by Israel too high? Is there simply no toll too great? If the last living human in Gaza is an avowed member of Hamas, does that justify to you that Israel should kill every single person there?
I don't know. This isn't like Vietnam where "losing" the war had no real material impact on the safety of Americans back home. This war is existential for Israel....it is fighting against its neighbor who has vowed to destroy it. I'd argue that if Hamas is left in power then even if a ceasefire is reached it will only last for a few months or years and they'll be right back at war again. Might as well just fight it out now and be done with it.
Sounds like Hitler's rationale in the 1920s & 1930s. Ironic, no?
Nothing like it. I’m not calling for the extermination of an entire race of people. I’m calling for the surrender of Hamas. It seems to me that you are arguing that every single Palestinian is a member of Hamas. I don’t believe that to be true.
You're calling for the "surrender" of Hamas, even if it means torturing and killing, (a.k.a, "exterminating") every single Palestinian in the process. That sounds like genocide, my friend. Rationalize it as you wish. My conscience couldn't live with such a monstrous, purposeful choice.