Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[ZenMode]

Here we go with the half-baked clash of civilizations BS that has been trotted out since the Iraq War. That along with your continued quoting of Hitchens tells us all we need to know. But you claim you aren’t a Sam Harris head? Right.

Which part of this do you disagree with:

• There are cultures who use human shields and groups who are deterred, to varying degrees, by human shields. There are cultures will strategically place their women and children in harms way knowing that the other side will be reluctant to shoot back for fes of killing innocent non-combatants. Conversely, there are cultures who put legitimate effort into warning non-combatants, to give them time to evacuate, as was the case with the recent hospital bombing.
• There are cultures who will fire rockets from schools and hospitals and mosques. On the other side, there are cultures that will be slowed/deterred by those who fired rockets from schools and hospitals and mosques.
• There are cultures that take hostages and parade them through the streets in front of cheering crowds, allowing those hostages to be assaulted, raped or even killed. On the other side are those who find that behavior to be abhorrent.

 

[Paine]

Which part of this do you disagree with:

• There are cultures who use human shields and groups who are deterred, to varying degrees, by human shields. There are cultures will strategically place their women and children in harms way knowing that the other side will be reluctant to shoot back for fes of killing innocent non-combatants. Conversely, there are cultures who put legitimate effort into warning non-combatants, to give them time to evacuate, as was the case with the recent hospital bombing.
• There are cultures who will fire rockets from schools and hospitals and mosques. On the other side, there are cultures that will be slowed/deterred by those who fired rockets from schools and hospitals and mosques.
• There are cultures that take hostages and parade them through the streets in front of cheering crowds, allowing those hostages to be assaulted, raped or even killed. On the other side are those who find that behavior to be abhorrent.

These aren’t cultural characteristics you absolute moron.

When people fight guerrilla wars or resist vastly superior military forces, they often use tactics like hiding among civilians—not because of “culture” but because it’s one of the only ways to resist. Israel, like any state actor with overwhelming firepower, has the luxury of conventional war. Palestinians do not. That’s a political and structural reality, not a cultural difference.

Hamas uses human shields. So did the IRA. So did the French resistance. Are we attributing that to “Irish culture” or “French culture”? No. We understand those actions in context.

But you’ll clutch your pearls when we rightly call you an Islamophobic racist.

 

[superrific]

These aren’t cultural characteristics you absolute moron.

When people fight guerrilla wars or resist vastly superior military forces, they often use tactics like hiding among civilians—not because of “culture” but because it’s one of the only ways to resist. Israel, like any state actor with overwhelming firepower, has the luxury of conventional war. Palestinians do not. That’s a political and structural reality, not a cultural difference.

Hamas uses human shields. So did the IRA. So did the French resistance. Are we attributing that to “Irish culture” or “French culture”? No. We understand those actions in context.

But you’ll clutch your pearls when we rightly call you an Islamophobic racist.

American revolutionary forces also hid among civilian populations. I seem to recall some dude named Marion, the swamp fox -- maybe Zen has heard of him -- who used hit and run tactics to mount an assault and then return to their farms.

 

[4thgenheel]

Culture is a very generalized term.

the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group

Jihadism/terrorism is a culture. If you don't like that word, you're welcome to pick whatever word you'd like to avoid missing the point.

you love drumming up these absurd excuses for israel's brutality.

a generous pre-10/7 estimate would place the % of palestinians who are member of hamas at about 1.5%.

 

[ZenMode]

These aren’t cultural characteristics you absolute moron.

They are. They are characteristics/tactics of Jihadists/Muslim terrorist culture.

When people fight guerrilla wars or resist vastly superior military forces, they often use tactics like hiding among civilians—not because of “culture” but because it’s one of the only ways to resist. Israel, like any state actor with overwhelming firepower, has the luxury of conventional war. Palestinians do not. That’s a political and structural reality, not a cultural difference.

I'm not saying it's a characteristic of Muslim culture. It's a characteristic of Jihadists/Muslim terrorist. Going back to the Iran/Iraq war, children were tied together and made to walk through fields full of landmines.

Hamas uses human shields. So did the IRA. So did the French resistance. Are we attributing that to “Irish culture” or “French culture”? No. We understand those actions in context.

But you’ll clutch your pearls when we rightly call you an Islamophobic racist.

The fact that other groups may have used some of the tactics I mentioned doesn't change the fact that those tactics are common among Jihadists/Muslim terrorists. It also doesn't make those tactics/characteristics any more moral or ethically acceptable, which was the entire point when talking about the alleged moral equivalence of Hamas and Israel.

 

[Paine]

They are. They are characteristics/tactics of Jihadists/Muslim terrorist culture.

I'm not saying it's a characteristic of Muslim culture. It's a characteristic of Jihadists/Muslim terrorist. Going back to the Iran/Iraq war, children were tied together and made to walk through fields full of landmines.

The fact that other groups may have used some of the tactics I mentioned doesn't change the fact that those tactics are common among Jihadists/Muslim terrorists. It also doesn't make those tactics/characteristics any more moral or ethically acceptable, which was the entire point when talking about the alleged moral equivalence of Hamas and Israel.

There is no such thing as “Jihadist/Muslim terrorist culture.”

Terrorism is not a culture, it’s a tactic. It has been used by people of many religions, nationalities, and ideologies throughout history. To associate it uniquely with Muslims is to ignore centuries of political violence by Christians, Jews, Hindus, secular nationalists, and even states themselves.

It's a racist and reductionist framing that has more to do with post-9/11 propaganda than reality.

 

[Healing]

Yall, the goalposts will never stop moving and the dissembling will continue until morale improves.

 

[ZenMode]

There is no such thing as “Jihadist/Muslim terrorist culture.”

That's your opinion. I disagree. Culture just refers to characteristics of a group of people. An NFL team can have a culture. How many Christian suicide bombers can you name? How many Buddhist, Jewish, Mormon or Catholic suicide bombers can you find record of?

Terrorism is not a culture, it’s a tactic. It has been used by people of many religions, nationalities, and ideologies throughout history. To associate it uniquely with Muslims is to ignore centuries of political violence by Christians, Jews, Hindus, secular nationalists, and even states themselves.

It's a racist and reductionist framing that has more to do with post-9/11 propaganda than reality.

Again, there are many commonalities in the tactics used by Muslim terrorists. The fact that those tactics may have been used by other groups in the past, doesn't change the fact that there is a significant difference in frequency and commonality today. Every culture/country/group, if you go back far enough, has committed war crimes. There are oppressed Christians in other parts of the world today. Do they strap bombs to their kids and send them into public areas? When the Nazis put Jews into ghettos, did the ones who managed to escape rape/kill Germans on their way out?

Again, this is a discussion about the alleged moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas today.

 

[Paine]

That's your opinion. I disagree. Culture just refers to characteristics of a group of people. An NFL team can have a culture. How many Christian suicide bombers can you name? How many Buddhist, Jewish, Mormon or Catholic suicide bombers can you find record of?

Again, there are many commonalities in the tactics used by Muslim terrorists. The fact that those tactics may have been used by other groups in the past, doesn't change the fact that there is a significant difference in frequency and commonality today. Every culture/country/group, if you go back far enough, has committed war crimes. There are oppressed Christians in other parts of the world today. Do they strap bombs to their kids and send them into public areas? When the Nazis put Jews into ghettos, did the ones who managed to escape rape/kill Germans on their way out?

Again, this is a discussion about the alleged moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas today.

Suicide bombing isn’t Islamic or cultural, it's strategic. It became widespread as a tactic in the 1980s, popularized not by Muslims, but by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. They were secular, not Muslim. Christian and Buddhist suicide attacks have happened too, but they don't get the same press or political framing.

Your historical analysis is severely lacking, as usual. If you’re saying certain tactics are common among Muslim groups today, ask why. Maybe it has something to do with a century of colonialism, Western-backed dictators, U.S. invasions, drone strikes, sanctions, and proxy wars across the Muslim world. That’s not a culture; it’s the result of being on the receiving end of global violence.

The conversation about Hamas and Israel isn't about moral equivalence. It's about power. One side is an occupying nuclear state with U.S. backing; the other is a stateless, blockaded population. That doesn’t excuse Hamas’ actions, but it explains why reducing everything to ‘Muslim terror culture’ is not only racist, it erases the historical and political realities at play.

 

[ZenMode]

Suicide bombing isn’t Islamic or cultural, it's strategic. It became widespread as a tactic in the 1980s, popularized not by Muslims, but by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. They were secular, not Muslim. Christian and Buddhist suicide attacks have happened too, but they don't get the same press or political framing.

Again, saying that certain tactics are more or less common in general, and more or less common among specific groups, doesn't change what I'm saying.

Your historical analysis is severely lacking, as usual. If you’re saying certain tactics are common among Muslim groups today, ask why. Maybe it has something to do with a century of colonialism, Western-backed dictators, U.S. invasions, drone strikes, sanctions, and proxy wars across the Muslim world. That’s not a culture; it’s the result of being on the receiving end of global violence.

The conversation about Hamas and Israel isn't about moral equivalence. It's about power. One side is an occupying nuclear state with U.S. backing; the other is a stateless, blockaded population. That doesn’t excuse Hamas’ actions, but it explains why reducing everything to ‘Muslim terror culture’ is not only racist, it erases the historical and political realities at play.

"The conversation about Hamas and Israel isn't about moral equivalence. It's about power."

I'm specifically talking about RaiGuy's claim that Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent. The decision to use immoral tactics doesn't make them any less immoral and there are certain tactics/behaviors that are common among Muslim terrorists/Jihadists. No, they aren't unique to ONLY Muslim terrorists/Jihadists, but there are common, across the world, to Muslim terrorists/Jihadists.

 

[Paine]

Again, saying that certain tactics are more or less common in general, and more or less common among specific groups, doesn't change what I'm saying.

"The conversation about Hamas and Israel isn't about moral equivalence. It's about power."

I'm specifically talking about RaiGuy's claim that Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent. The decision to use immoral tactics doesn't make them any less immoral and there are certain tactics/behaviors that are common among Muslim terrorists/Jihadists. No, they aren't unique to ONLY Muslim terrorists/Jihadists, but there are common, across the world, to Muslim terrorists/Jihadists.

I get what you’re saying about certain tactics being common among jihadist groups, and that using those tactics is indeed immoral. But my point isn’t about whether the tactics themselves are immoral; it’s about how selectively and simplistically those tactics are used to paint an entire group or people, especially Muslims, as uniquely violent or morally bankrupt.

When people claim moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, they aren’t saying all tactics are the same or all actors are identical. They’re pointing to the context: Israel is a state with overwhelming military power, engaged in long-term occupation with tactics that cause mass civilian suffering, while Hamas operates under occupation and blockade, with limited resources.

What often gets lost is the asymmetry of power and the broader political context behind these tactics. Labeling Hamas’s actions as "immoral" without scrutinizing the systemic violence and human rights abuses that Israel also commits risks simplifying a very complex situation into a false binary of “good vs evil.”

Pointing out common tactics among jihadist groups doesn’t automatically justify ignoring the broader political realities and the role those realities play in producing violence on both sides.

@Healing is right though. You refuse to see when confronted with the bare reality. Just keep moving those goal posts.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Suicide bombing isn’t Islamic or cultural, it's strategic. It became widespread as a tactic in the 1980s, popularized not by Muslims, but by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. They were secular, not Muslim. Christian and Buddhist suicide attacks have happened too, but they don't get the same press or political framing.

Your historical analysis is severely lacking, as usual. If you’re saying certain tactics are common among Muslim groups today, ask why. Maybe it has something to do with a century of colonialism, Western-backed dictators, U.S. invasions, drone strikes, sanctions, and proxy wars across the Muslim world. That’s not a culture; it’s the result of being on the receiving end of global violence.

The conversation about Hamas and Israel isn't about moral equivalence. It's about power. One side is an occupying nuclear state with U.S. backing; the other is a stateless, blockaded population. That doesn’t excuse Hamas’ actions, but it explains why reducing everything to ‘Muslim terror culture’ is not only racist, it erases the historical and political realities at play.

There is a cultural element to Islamic terrorism, just like there is a cultural element to MAGAism. There was a cultural element to the Japanese using kamikazes in the way that they did during World War II. Trying to play "whataboutism" and diminish the immense impact that Jihadist terror has had on the world is merely an attempt to gaslight us into not believing what our own eyes and ears have told us over the last two and a half decades.

Let's recap from 2001 onwards:

Islamic terrorists on 9/11 killed 3,000 Americans.
Islamic terrorists killed 202 in bombings of a tourist district in Bali in 2002.
Islamic terrorists killed 193 people in a series of bombings in Madrid in 2004.
Islamic terrorists killed 52 people in a series of bombings in London in 2005.
Islamic terrorists killed 88 people in bombings of a tourist district in Egypt in 2005.
Islamic terrorists killed 40 people in a series of bombings in Moscow in 2010.
Islamic terrorists killed 3 people and injured hundreds more at the Boston Marathon in 2013.
Islamic terrorists killed 12 people at Charlie Hebdo in France in 2015 for publishing a drawing of Mohammed.
Islamic terrorists killed 137 people in a series of attacks in Paris in 2015.
Islamic terrorists killed 14 people in an attack on an office Christmas party in California in 2015.
Islamic terrorists killed 35 people in a series of bombings in Belgium in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 49 people in an attack on a nightclub in Orlando in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 87 people in France in an attack on a parade in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 12 people in an attack on a Christmas market in Germany in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 22 people in an attack on an Ariana Grande concert in the UK in 2017.
Islamic terrorists killed 15 people in an attack in Spain in 2017.
Islamic terrorist killed 8 people in an attack on pedestrians in New York City in 2017.

Those are just the major attacks, and just those on western civilians. I didn't list the numerous other smaller attacks in which one or two people were killed. And let's not talk about the unsuccessful or thwarted attacks: bombs on airliners over Detroit and Miami, in Times Square, plots against fuel farms and Christmas markets in the United States.

Those aren't one-offs, nor are they coincidences. There are cultural differences between Islamists and Westerners. It isn't Islamophobic to state that, because most Muslims aren't jihadists.

 

[ZenMode]

I get what you’re saying about certain tactics being common among jihadist groups, and that using those tactics is indeed immoral. But my point isn’t about whether the tactics themselves are immoral; it’s about how selectively and simplistically those tactics are used to paint an entire group or people, especially Muslims, as uniquely violent or morally bankrupt.

Which is why I specifically refer to Jihadists and Muslim terrorists and not only Muslims.

When people claim moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, they aren’t saying all tactics are the same or all actors are identical. They’re pointing to the context: Israel is a state with overwhelming military power, engaged in long-term occupation with tactics that cause mass civilian suffering, while Hamas operates under occupation and blockade, with limited resources.

What often gets lost is the asymmetry of power and the broader political context behind these tactics. Labeling Hamas’s actions as "immoral" without scrutinizing the systemic violence and human rights abuses that Israel also commits risks simplifying a very complex situation into a false binary of “good vs evil.”

Pointing out common tactics among jihadist groups doesn’t automatically justify ignoring the broader political realities and the role those realities play in producing violence on both sides.

@Healing is right though. You refuse to see when confronted with the bare reality. Just keep moving those goal posts.

The broader, probably broadest, political reality is that Hamas, and many Muslims, don't believe Israel has a right to exist and will indefinitely continue to attack Israel, take hostages, murder civilians, etc. That is why a two-state solution is impossible. Giving Gaza true sovereignty would only increase the frequency and violence of the attacks on Israel. And, like I said, there are other groups who today are oppressed and don't resort to the tactics that we frequently see from Muslim terrorists.

 

[Calheel]

There is a cultural element to Islamic terrorism, just like there is a cultural element to MAGAism. There was a cultural element to the Japanese using kamikazes in the way that they did during World War II. Trying to play "whataboutism" and diminish the immense impact that Jihadist terror has had on the world is merely an attempt to gaslight us into not believing what our own eyes and ears have told us over the last two and a half decades.

Let's recap from 2001 onwards:

Islamic terrorists on 9/11 killed 3,000 Americans.
Islamic terrorists killed 202 in bombings of a tourist district in Bali in 2002.
Islamic terrorists killed 193 people in a series of bombings in Madrid in 2004.
Islamic terrorists killed 52 people in a series of bombings in London in 2005.
Islamic terrorists killed 88 people in bombings of a tourist district in Egypt in 2005.
Islamic terrorists killed 40 people in a series of bombings in Moscow in 2010.
Islamic terrorists killed 3 people and injured hundreds more at the Boston Marathon in 2013.
Islamic terrorists killed 12 people at Charlie Hebdo in France in 2015 for publishing a drawing of Mohammed.
Islamic terrorists killed 137 people in a series of attacks in Paris in 2015.
Islamic terrorists killed 14 people in an attack on an office Christmas party in California in 2015.
Islamic terrorists killed 35 people in a series of bombings in Belgium in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 49 people in an attack on a nightclub in Orlando in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 87 people in France in an attack on a parade in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 12 people in an attack on a Christmas market in Germany in 2016.
Islamic terrorist killed 22 people in an attack on an Ariana Grande concert in the UK in 2017.
Islamic terrorists killed 15 people in an attack in Spain in 2017.
Islamic terrorist killed 8 people in an attack on pedestrians in New York City in 2017.

Those are just the major attacks, and just those on western civilians. I didn't list the numerous other smaller attacks in which one or two people were killed. And let's not talk about the unsuccessful or thwarted attacks: bombs on airliners over Detroit and Miami, in Times Square, plots against fuel farms and Christmas markets in the United States.

Those aren't one-offs, nor are they coincidences. There are cultural differences between Islamists and Westerners. It isn't Islamophobic to state that, because most Muslims aren't jihadists.

By rough count, that is about 4,000 dead - which is less than 10% of the deaths Israel has caused in Gaza in less than two years.

So if we are going by body counts, Israel is way ahead.

 

[ZenMode]

By rough count, that is about 4,000 dead - which is less than 10% of the deaths Israel has caused in Israel in less than two years.

So if we are going by body counts, Israel is way ahead.

Body count isn't the correct measure. Intent is the better measure.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

By rough count, that is about 4,000 dead - which is less than 10% of the deaths Israel has caused in Israel in less than two years.

So if we are going by body counts, Israel is way ahead.

Good thing we aren't comparing an active war with random attacks against civilians all over western world.

 

[Calheel]

Good thing we aren't comparing an active war with random attacks against civilians all over western world.

I’m pretty sure the perpetrators of those random attacks would say they are in an active war.

I also don’t think the family members of the dead Gazans think that Israel’s killing techniques are more moral.

 

[Paine]

If a military campaign consistently produces massive civilian casualties, flattens civilian infrastructure, and targets places like hospitals or refugee camps, then saying “they don’t intend to kill civilians” strains credibility. At some point, repeated results reflect either indifference or tacit acceptance.

Even if Israel says it tries to avoid civilian casualties, its rules of engagement, targeting choices, and collective punishment tactics (e.g. siege, cutting off water and electricity, bombing dense urban areas) tell a different story. You can’t claim moral high ground while enacting policies that make mass civilian suffering inevitable.

Ben Gvir and Smotrich aren’t fringe; they’re cabinet ministers. Their words are reflected in actual policy and military actions. Dismissing their genocidal or eliminationist rhetoric as merely “inflammatory” ignores how power works: when you give extremists the keys to the state, their rhetoric becomes real.

 

[superrific]

There is a cultural element to Islamic terrorism,

Those are just the major attacks, and just those on western civilians. I didn't list the numerous other smaller attacks in which one or two people were killed. And let's not talk about the unsuccessful or thwarted attacks: bombs on airliners over Detroit and Miami, in Times Square, plots against fuel farms and Christmas markets in the United States.

Those aren't one-offs, nor are they coincidences. There are cultural differences between Islamists and Westerners. It isn't Islamophobic to state that, because most Muslims aren't jihadists.

1. This conversation isn't about terrorism. It's almost a meta-conversation. It seems to be about whether Islam -- in general or just in jihadi form -- is uniquely disparaging of or uncaring toward human life. And your logic is fallacious: you're making the classic Wason selection task error. In your defense, it's a common mistake -- about 90% of people get it wrong.

Wason selection task - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here, the "8" card is like your observations of Islamic terror groups. But you also have to turn over the red card, which is the context. That's what Paine and others are pointing out.

2. These cultural differences between Islamists and Westerners seem quite ad hoc and posited for convenience. Did you know that Churchill, the great stalwart anti-Nazi, created a mass famine in Bengal during WWII that left some preposterously high number of people dead? How does that fit into your cultural classifications? Or the Trail of Tears? Or the Holocaust? Or in my lifetime, apartheid, the Balkan genocide, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, etc.

But you know, maybe it's the culture of Abrahamic religions. If we look to the East, maybe we'll find better behavior. Like Japan -- I mean, did they rampantly violate human rights during and before WWII? Oh. Well, what about China? Oh. Cambodia? Oh Oh Oh.

3. I think it's more accurate, by a fair amount, to posit that humans do awful things in power struggles, regardless of religion.

4. To the extent that there's a culture of retribution (I think there might be, which isn't really what you're talking about here), I think it's more of a geographic thing. It's specific to the cultures of the area, including non-Muslim populations in the area (after all, Assad's government in Syria was Alawite, with backing from Christian groups. They gassed the Muslims, not the other way around).

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I’m pretty sure the perpetrators of those random attacks would say they are in an active war.

I also don’t think the family members of the dead Gazans think that Israel’s killing techniques are more moral.

It doesn't matter what the terrorists say. A random Muslim guy in the middle of Paris in 2015 is not in a warzone. If that guy decides to get a few of his friends together and murder over 100 civilians at a concert, that still doesn't make it any more of a warzone.

Gaza is a warzone. Paris, Manhattan, Brussels, Orlando, etc. are not.