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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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2ManyBlueCups said:
And maybe they wouldn't be living like prisoners if their government used the billions of dollars in aid it has received on improving their lives instead of tunnels and weapons to wage war with?

With regard to your second question, it isn't like they had a buffet of options to choose from. Going back to your traditional holy land in the midst of the largest targeted extermination in human history isn't something that I am going to judge them for.
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You do know that Israel was limiting everything that was going in to Gaza? At one point, they had them on a calorie count Israel used 'calorie count' to limit Gaza food during blockade, critics claim
They could have all the money in the world, but it wouldn’t matter because Israel controls everything around them and their water supply and electricity.

For your second paragraph, why didn’t the area that was responsible for the largest targeted extermination provide a safe haven after the war? They could have given them part of Germany. Why should the Palestinians be punished for someone else’s crimes? You don’t fix one horrific tragedy by creating another one. But, I guess it was deemed fine because they’re just Muslims/non-european people.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
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That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
 
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TarSpiel said:
That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
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not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
 
Batt Boy said:
not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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I think it's more important that people in Gaza just want to live and have some kind of future. Living without autonomy was never going to work long-term. Imagine being accepted to a university abroad, but then Israel doesn't allow you to leave. Then you're stuck and have no options for future jobs. That's just one type of example. People rarely act out if they have happy and peaceful lives.
 
Rai, I was listening to a play list earlier today and a song came on that made me think of you and your family. Bob Dylan’s song Blowing In the Wind. I was going to type the applicable parts, but that would have meant typing the whole song (forgive me, but I’m not very computer literate). Please listen to the song if you aren’t familiar with it. God bless you and your family:
 
Batt Boy said:
the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
 
TarSpiel said:
You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
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That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
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Nobody is arguing that Hamas isn't part of the problem.

Who are you talking to?
 
The major impediments to peace since 1995 have been
1) Hamas
2) Netanyahu/Likud/religious extremists/settlers

The PLO and Palestinian Authrity accepted Israel in 1993 and have honored that since.
In the 1995 Israeli election, Netanyahu was going to lose to Yitzhak Rabin, who was a former general who wanted to close the peace deal with the PA and had the bona fides to do so. Netnyahu's inceniary campaign rhetoric inspired the finatic who assassinated Rabin. Peres, who was seen as weak, stepped in as replacement, Hamas did a few suicide bombings and
Netanyahy won.

Hamas and Netanyahu have been somewhat tied at the hip ever since. Netanyahy does not care about Gaza, only the WB. He needs Hamas around so he can claim he cannot give up WB.

Need to
1)sideline Hamas and Netanyahu,
2) put the PA in charge of Gaza in addition to WB
3) create and independent Pal state in WB and Gza,
4) end Israeli occupation of WB, Israel gives up its illegal settlement on WB or does mutally-agreed land swap with Pals,
5) insert a robust peace-keeping force
6) mutual recog between Israel and Pals, Israel and Arab states along the lines of what the Arab peace plan has long offered
7) have the world impose the peace settlement. The terms are well-known.

Otherwise, we will be rigbht back here in a few years.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
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Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
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When they elected Hamas in, what was it, 2008?

When the majority of the residents of Gaza were either not yet born or still infants.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
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The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.
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Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.
 
RaiGuy said:
Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.
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Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up the hospital, as was confirmed by US, British, and European intelligence. Israel has committed atrocities in this war, but that hospital explosion was not one of them.

I posted a NYT article a few pages back that stated that US intelligence believe that the war in Gaza has crippled Hamas much more than officials believed was possible last October. They stated that they don’t believe that Hamas will be capable of another 10/7 attack for the foreseeable future and that Hamas has even offered to stop governing in Gaza. That’s essentially what Israel’s stated goal was at the beginning of this war which means that their offensive has been effective. At this point a cease fire is actually feasible and hopefully for all sides involved it happens quickly.

With regard to the 20,000 versus 40,000 figure, I was referring to civilians killed and not the overall number of people killed in Gaza. Of course the 20k combatant figure is up for debate as it varies significantly depending on your source.
 
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