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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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CLT Heel said:
Hamas is trying to force an endgame with Israel here at the expense of their Palestinian people. Rai, you have to realize that hamas knows that the outcome of them releasing these videos is that they are signing their death certificate. If they thought that doing this would turn public opinion (beyond the extremely small minority) in their favor, they are sorely mistaken.

I really do feel for the Palestinian innocents even if I dont agree with their desires for the repatriazation of Israel. But if hamas releases videos of their actual executions, you (and they) have to know that Israel will repay in spades.
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Yup. If Hamas releases execution videos, the ceasefire deal (or what exists of it) is done. As are the pro “resistance” protests on campuses.
 
Batt Boy said:
Some time ago, another Iranian backed terror group tortured to death, over 8 months with doctors help, a hostage. Thankfully we got Mughniyeh in the end. The doc is still practicing outside Tehran.

These types need to be eliminated.

The IDF will hunt down those responsible, regardless of any ceasefires.
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Oh, I thought this was recent. Sadly, doctor-assisted torture was common in the 80s. It was all over South America. That's the main reason we got the UN Convention Against Torture -- which, I think, has worked pretty well all things considered. Well, the CAT and also the ICC. Not that torture doesn't exist (esp. in totalitarian states) but it's prevalence is much reduced. Which is, I suppose, good.

I really do not understand what Hamas thinks its end game is here, by releasing those videos. We often talk about how Israeli violence begets Palestinian hate and thus terror, but it can go the other direction also. How many IDF soldiers see these videos and lose all sympathy for Palestinians? How many possibly-moderate Israelis see this and decide that war, war, war is the solution?
 
CLT Heel said:
Hamas is trying to force an endgame with Israel here at the expense of their Palestinian people. Rai, you have to realize that hamas knows that the outcome of them releasing these videos is that they are signing their death certificate. If they thought that doing this would turn public opinion (beyond the extremely small minority) in their favor, they are sorely mistaken.

I really do feel for the Palestinian innocents even if I dont agree with their desires for the repatriazation of Israel. But if hamas releases videos of their actual executions, you (and they) have to know that Israel will repay in spades.
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I don’t quite understand this post. I’ve always said that killing of any civilian is wrong. At the same time, why are you giving Israel justification for killing more civilians when 6 Israeli civilians were killed, but say nothing when 46,000+ Palestinians have been killed? I just don’t get the justification. Both sides need to stop killing civilians.

Why doesn’t Israel realize that killing more Palestinians will only lead to more attacks from people that want to avenge deaths from the other side?
 
RaiGuy said:
I don’t quite understand this post. I’ve always said that killing of any civilian is wrong. At the same time, why are you giving Israel justification for killing more civilians when 6 Israeli civilians were killed, but say nothing when 46,000+ Palestinians have been killed? I just don’t get the justification. Both sides need to stop killing civilians.

Why doesn’t Israel realize that killing more Palestinians will only lead to more attacks from people that want to avenge deaths from the other side?
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could that be said for Oct 7th?
 
RaiGuy said:
I don’t quite understand this post. I’ve always said that killing of any civilian is wrong. At the same time, why are you giving Israel justification for killing more civilians when 6 Israeli civilians were killed, but say nothing when 46,000+ Palestinians have been killed? I just don’t get the justification. Both sides need to stop killing civilians.

Why doesn’t Israel realize that killing more Palestinians will only lead to more attacks from people that want to avenge deaths from the other side?
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Israel would prefer to not kill civilians. Hamas uses civilians as protection because they know Israel is more concerned about Palestinian civilians than Hamas is.

Hamas, and the Palestinians they are endangering, believes that dead civilian will be swept away to paradise, so there's no real reason to care.
 
ZenMode said:
Israel would prefer to not kill civilians. Hamas uses civilians as protection because they know Israel is more concerned about Palestinian civilians than Hamas is.

Hamas, and the Palestinians they are endangering, believes that dead civilian will be swept away to paradise, so there's no real reason to care.
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Interesting....so Israel would prefer not to kill civilians, yet they are actively starving a whole population. How does that make sense?
 
RaiGuy said:
Interesting....so Israel would prefer not to kill civilians, yet they are actively starving a whole population. How does that make sense?
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Everything I've read says that Israel has been nothing but helpful in trying to get aid into Gaza. What have you read that makes you believe otherwise?
 
ZenMode said:
Everything I've read says that Israel has been nothing but helpful in trying to get aid into Gaza. What have you read that makes you believe otherwise?
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Really?
Let's see, they have blocked aid trucks. They have bombed aid trucks and aid organizations multiple times. They have massacred people attempting to get aid from trucks. They have killed multiple people trying to fish to survive. They have sniped people walking with water. They have bombed refugee tent camps where people were attempting to stay safe and get aid. And that's not even including the settlers that have stopped trucks and destroyed the aid.
 
RaiGuy said:
Really?
Let's see, they have blocked aid trucks. They have bombed aid trucks and aid organizations multiple times. They have massacred people attempting to get aid from trucks. They have killed multiple people trying to fish to survive. They have sniped people walking with water. They have bombed refugee tent camps where people were attempting to stay safe and get aid. And that's not even including the settlers that have stopped trucks and destroyed the aid.
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Without knowing the details of individual events, I can't really comment, but according to the DoD, the US has moved over 1 million pounds of aid into Gaza, and that is as of May.
 


I was frustrated by reporting that didn’t seem to add-up about the state of vaccination in Gaza — widely claiming that Gaza had 99% vaccination rate before O7 but now it has already dropped to 89% or lower, which is hard to made sense even with a high death toll from the war and high birth rate.

By looking up medical journals about vaccination and public health issues published prior to 2023, what I figured out was the following:

* children start vaccination there at 12-months old
* WHO had a very effective program that improved vaccination rates there starting around 2005 or so and reached and maintained an estimated 99% vaccination rate (with some notes that data is mostly extrapolated from health care worker reports and outcomes (lack of polio and measles outbreaks)). But the success rate probably peaked in 2019 and the pandemic resulted in growing vaccine resistance in Gaza in 2020 and 2021. Plus the impact of the pandemic made the ability to obtain decent medical data there all but collapse until 2022 or 2023. So the rate of vaccination has been in some state of decline starting in 2020.

I also read that they still use live virus vaccines a lot there and the case of polio probably was a result of contamination from waste of live virus vaccine recipients exacerbated by the unsanitary conditions created by the war. The polio virus had to come from somewhere and this is the most likely explanation.

Anyway, it is really frustrating that reporting is so shallow you have to go back and piece together old journal articles and reports (not a ton of Western news articles on mundane issues like vaccination rates in Gaza showed up) to try to understand a seemingly obvious question like how is it possible for the polio vaccination rate to drop so precision so short a time — it’s not like you have to get the polio vaccine annually.
 
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ZenMode said:
Without knowing the details of individual events, I can't really comment, but according to the DoD, the US has moved over 1 million pounds of aid into Gaza, and that is as of May.
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Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.
 
RaiGuy said:
Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.
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Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.
 
RaiGuy said:
Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.
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I agree that details matter. I've heard about some individual situations where it was reported that Israel bombed "safe" zones. It was also reported that it wasn't a current safe zone, but a previously designated safe zone. I don't know if that's true. I've also read that Hamas was killing people trying to get aid. There's a lot of info out that and it's not always easy to know what is real and what is fiction.

What I believe, in general, is that Hamas isn't (for reasons I mentioned earlier) concerned about the life of Palestinians. Israel is, but the world is putting almost impossible expectations on them, especially when Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shield. IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher. It seems unlikely, as a rule, that aid isn't getting to Palestinians. Is some not getting where it's supposed to? Sure. There's a big war happening in a small area and bad things are going to happen.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.
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Wow, you sound like the israeli propaganda machine that is trying to gaslight everyone. I am not getting into the debate about the first hospital that was bombed because I have covered that before. Let's say for argument's sake that it was them that bombed that one hospital. You're saying that Israel isn't to blame for bombing the other 35 hospitals in Gaza?What kind of reasoning is that? It's pretty obvious that if you bomb 35 hospitals, you would be the one responsible for the lack of f****** hospitals. Again, you are the one victim blaming.
 
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