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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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HeelInTheOzarks said:
Also didn’t Hamas get like 30% of the vote in an election split by dozens of parties?
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General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.
 
superrific said:
General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.
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When your “social services” wing diverts billions of dollars in foreign aid from infrastructure and assistance projects to fund terror tunnels and tens of thousands of missiles to launch at civilian cities, you bear the blame for that. In no world was Israel going to say, “hey, this group that has vowed to kill our citizens has taken control along our southern border. Let’s just let them come in as they wish.”
 
RaiGuy said:
Yeah, and also, at the time, they had said they were dropping their military wing. They were also the ones that were cleaning up the corruption from the previous governing party. Basically, the people that voted for them was because of the changes they were seeing, rather than because they were supporting their military agenda.
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This is really critical information.

The problem is, you can say it over and over again, but people like NutCups just don't seem able to integrate it into their preferred narrative.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
When your “social services” wing diverts billions of dollars in foreign aid from infrastructure and assistance projects to fund terror tunnels and tens of thousands of missiles to launch at civilian cities, you bear the blame for that. In no world was Israel going to say, “hey, this group that has vowed to kill our citizens has taken control along our southern border. Let’s just let them come in as they wish.”
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Dude, why? You don't have to try to move the goal posts in every post. This one was very short. Could you at least try to retain some sort of tether to reason?

To be specific, the blockade in question was not about keeping Hamas out of Israel. It was about keeping supplies out of Gaza. That's why the foreign aid didn't go to infrastructure. Who are they building infrastructure for? The businesses who would never locate there because the blockade and Israeli domination make it one of the worst business environments in the developed world?

At least you're now admitting that Israel is in control of Gaza, and thus I would expect not to hear the "Hamas is in charge" argument from you again. Oh, who am I kidding? Of course you'll continue with it. But anyway, the blockade was a massive strategic failure. Israel was hoping to use it to force Gazans to vote for a party that wasn't Hamas. It was a baffling decision; strong-armed threats like that rarely work, and almost never work on Palestinians. In any event, the Palestinians called Israel's bluff, so then Israel had to prove that it wasn't bluffing . . . and now we're here.

It is so tiring listening to people like you acting as if Israel are the good guys here. It's just affinity bias. In reality, the Israel cabinet is composed of rabid right-wingers, whose constituencies are the settlers and ultra-orthodox fundamentalists. Jewish fundamentalists, like Hindu fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists, are among the worst people in the world. It's almost as if fundamentalism is anti-social.

Back in the 1980s, it was plausible to assert that Israel was the good side in the conflict, because its leadership was generally free of extremist influence. And Arafat probably recognized that, which is why he agreed to Oslo. Of course, back then, the arab resistance was also not nearly fundamentalist as it is now. Since then, Israel has been dominated by the birth rates of its backwards settler population, and the Palestinian resistance dominated by the Islamist wing of Hamas.
 
superrific said:
General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.
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You think the political side of Hamas would stop the military side from doing what it wants?

The only people who can stop Hamas are the Palestinians themselves.

Yeah Israel blockade but you forget Egypt closed its border to Gaza after Hamas won election. Those evil Egyptians!
 
With the supposed pause for polio vaccinations on... Israel bombs a hospital.

www.nytimes.com

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

The second phase of a campaign to vaccinate children in Gaza against polio began on Thursday in southern Gaza, the World Health Organization said, continuing a frantic drive to avert a deadly outbreak in the war-battered territory.

Israel has agreed to brief, staggered pauses in its military offensive in Gaza to allow health officials to conduct vaccinations. But underscoring the limited nature of the pauses, hours after the first phase of the campaign wrapped up in central Gaza on Wednesday, an Israeli airstrike hit the courtyard of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, one of the largest in the area, Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s official news agency, reported.

Four people were killed, including women and children sheltering in tents around the hospital, Wafa said on Thursday. Video taken by the Reuters news agency showed tents in ruins, their wooden beams flattened, and people’s belongings strewed in the hospital’s courtyard.
 
altmin said:
With the supposed pause for polio vaccinations on... Israel bombs a hospital.

www.nytimes.com

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

The second phase of a campaign to vaccinate children in Gaza against polio began on Thursday in southern Gaza, the World Health Organization said, continuing a frantic drive to avert a deadly outbreak in the war-battered territory.

Israel has agreed to brief, staggered pauses in its military offensive in Gaza to allow health officials to conduct vaccinations. But underscoring the limited nature of the pauses, hours after the first phase of the campaign wrapped up in central Gaza on Wednesday, an Israeli airstrike hit the courtyard of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, one of the largest in the area, Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s official news agency, reported.

Four people were killed, including women and children sheltering in tents around the hospital, Wafa said on Thursday. Video taken by the Reuters news agency showed tents in ruins, their wooden beams flattened, and people’s belongings strewed in the hospital’s courtyard.
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Are we sure that Israel hit the hospital? Don't think taking Hamas's word for it is the best strategy. The damage in the video above didn't seem to be consistent with an airstrike, but I'm not expert.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Are we sure that Israel hit the hospital? Don't think taking Hamas's word for it is the best strategy. The damage in the video above didn't seem to be consistent with an airstrike, but I'm not expert.
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You are relentless. Either you question if Israel did it, or you will come back and justify it because you will say a Hamas member was in the vicinity and they were all human shields.
 
RaiGuy said:
You are relentless. Either you question if Israel did it, or you will come back and justify it because you will say a Hamas member was in the vicinity and they were all human shields.
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I'm asking the question. Usually when the NYT reports about an IDF airstrike, they reach out to both sides for confirmation. In the article above they only reached out to Hamas. Of course Hamas is going to blame Israel, and Israel may very well be to blame. I simply don't take anything Hamas says at face value, and I don't believe the media should either.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I'm asking the question. Usually when the NYT reports about an IDF airstrike, they reach out to both sides for confirmation. In the article above they only reached out to Hamas. Of course Hamas is going to blame Israel, and Israel may very well be to blame. I simply don't take anything Hamas says at face value, and I don't believe the media should either.
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The Palestinian Authority is not Hamas. You just see "Palestinian" and assume Hamas.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
The PA doesn't operate in Gaza. Information from authorities in Gaza inevitably passes through or comes directly from Hamas.
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They have reporters there. Your infatuation with Hamas is ridiculous.

But you are saying we should wait until the IDF reports that it killed civilians? Your logic doesn't make sense.
 
RaiGuy said:
They have reporters there. Your infatuation with Hamas is ridiculous.

But you are saying we should wait until the IDF reports that it killed civilians? Your logic doesn't make sense.
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It is ridiculous to acknowledge that Hamas, a designated international terrorist group, isn’t always a credible source?

I’m saying that usually sources like the NYT go to both sides for comment before reporting on something. They did not appear to do that in this case.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
It is ridiculous to acknowledge that Hamas, a designated international terrorist group, isn’t always a credible source?

I’m saying that usually sources like the NYT go to both sides for comment before reporting on something. They did not appear to do that in this case.
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You're assuming it's Hamas when the article clearly states it was from Wafa, the PA media outlet.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Right, I addressed that above. FWIW no other major outlets other than the NYT are reporting on the attack.
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FWIW, Israel blocks foreign media from entering to cover what is happening and they have targeted/assassinated 100+ journalists that were in Gaza. That probably is a reason for that.
 
The NYT article has been updated:

The Israeli military confirmed the strike, but not the death toll or the proximity to the hospital. It said it had struck a Hamas command center overnight to “remove an immediate threat,” which was “embedded” within a humanitarian area in Deir al-Balah.

“Numerous steps were taken to mitigate the risk of harming civilians, including the use of precise munitions” and aerial surveillance, the statement said, echoing words often employed by the military after airstrikes in Gaza.
www.nytimes.com

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
The NYT article has been updated:

The Israeli military confirmed the strike, but not the death toll or the proximity to the hospital. It said it had struck a Hamas command center overnight to “remove an immediate threat,” which was “embedded” within a humanitarian area in Deir al-Balah.

“Numerous steps were taken to mitigate the risk of harming civilians, including the use of precise munitions” and aerial surveillance, the statement said, echoing words often employed by the military after airstrikes in Gaza.
www.nytimes.com

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
Click to expand...
Ah yes, the Hamas excuse.
So I’m guessing the civilians that were killed just randomly combusted. Such BS.
 
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