Israel Hamas War, West Bank | Hamas, Israel agree to stage 1 of peace plan

[rodoheel]

It was the Supreme Court's behavior that really tipped the scales for me. I just struggle with the "there is no bottom" reality. I fully expected the reactionaries to do their "the best time in our country's history was the 18th and 19th century so let's go back!" bullshit. I was not prepared for them to do what they did, which is simply an unabashed attack on the rule of law and forfeiture of its status as a court.

I would be a lot less angry if I had confidence that people are ready to do what needs to be done. Alas, people will view it as "too extreme" -- and perhaps at this time last year I would have as well, so don't take this for an outwardly focused rant -- and decide that we just have to live with this dystopia.

I understand your perspective. I agree with you on about 98% of the substance of what Trump and Co. are doing - a brazen, cynical, attack on institutions, the very concept of democratic government, and the very nature objective truth, all aided and abetted by a Supreme Court that has such a boner for destroying the administrative state and promoting "unitary executive theory" that it is willing to grease the path into the abyss, all while pretending that it's just calling balls and strikes.

The main thing I disagree with you about, as we've discussed many times, is the "what needs to be done" part. I think your insistence that the MAGA movement be stamped out by force (sort of similar to the argument you're making about the Netanyahu government in Israel) is out of touch with what most "ordinary" (somewhat politically apathetic) people think, and out of touch with what the end result would be. I think the idea that we can do a lot of illiberal stuff to fight MAGA and reverse its actions - in fact, as I understand you, that things are do dire that it is critical that we do a lot of illiberal stuff - suffers from a lack of historical perspective, both in terms of how dire the current situation is and in terms of what the reaction and ultimate result of that will be. To borrow a quote from Alexander Hamilton in Federalist # 1: "For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution."

Again: I understand the anger. But there is a whole lot of daylight, at least as I see it, between following your preferred course of action and "deciding that we just have to live with the dystopia." You can fight evil, and fight fascism, without sacrificing your own sense of humanity, liberty, and justice. I know you see that as some form of weakness. I understand the criticism. I just think that any true progress as a nation is going to have to come from reconciliation, grace, and understanding, not forcible imposition of one's preferred outcome. As someone said on Twitter within the last couple weeks: "if America is going to make it it will be because people choose forgiving things they should never have had to forgive over hurting people they have every right to be angry with."

 

[rodoheel]

So now these 20 people are freed from their ordeal. Meanwhile, Trump shipped 10x that many people to the prison in El Salvador where they will be tortured, starved and raped. Do we just not care about them?

Super this is just absurd logic. Yes, we care about them. What the Trump admin has done to them is horrific. We can care about two, ten, or even 100 groups of different wronged people at once. You can recognize and acknowledge the world as a deeply flawed, brutal, terrifying, and unfair place while still taking solace or joy in something you see as positive happening. Like, if someone posts on social media celebrating the birth of a child, are you going to respond and say "how can you celebrate one new life when thousands have been ended in the past few months"? Of course not.

 

[superrific]

Super this is just absurd logic. Yes, we care about them. What the Trump admin has done to them is horrific. We can care about two, ten, or even 100 groups of different wronged people at once. You can recognize and acknowledge the world as a deeply flawed, brutal, terrifying, and unfair place while still taking solace or joy in something you see as positive happening. Like, if someone posts on social media celebrating the birth of a child, are you going to respond and say "how can you celebrate one new life when thousands have been ended in the past few months"? Of course not.

No, that's not an apt comparison. The birth of the child is not intimately connected to the deaths of those thousands.

These hostages were created as hostages by the very fascism that now seeks to credit their release. That's the part I have a problem with, and that's why your analogy doesn't work. And yes, Hamas is part of that fascism as well. It's not quite fascism in the same way but it's close enough for present purposes.

I just don't understand the elation. I'm not saying it is bad that the hostages are freed. It's just that my reaction is, "good. Now what about all the other people."

 

[uncjhodges]

No, that's not an apt comparison. The birth of the child is not intimately connected to the deaths of those thousands.

These hostages were created as hostages by the very fascism that now seeks to credit their release. That's the part I have a problem with, and that's why your analogy doesn't work. And yes, Hamas is part of that fascism as well. It's not quite fascism in the same way but it's close enough for present purposes.

I just don't understand the elation. I'm not saying it is bad that the hostages are freed. It's just that my reaction is, "good. Now what about all the other people."

Well, you see super, those other people are Palestinians, so they don’t count as much

 

[heelinhell]

I am happy that those 20 hostages have been released to reunite with their loved ones.

Biden also negotiated a ceasefire and release of American and Israeli hostages.

Given the recent history of this conflict, I remain skeptical that further progress will be made. If we are in a much different place 6 weeks from now than we were in early January before Biden left office, then that would be encouraging...but I have my doubts.

 

[superrific]

I understand your perspective. I agree with you on about 98% of the substance of what Trump and Co. are doing - a brazen, cynical, attack on institutions, the very concept of democratic government, and the very nature objective truth, all aided and abetted by a Supreme Court that has such a boner for destroying the administrative state and promoting "unitary executive theory" that it is willing to grease the path into the abyss, all while pretending that it's just calling balls and strikes.

The main thing I disagree with you about, as we've discussed many times, is the "what needs to be done" part. I think your insistence that the MAGA movement be stamped out by force (sort of similar to the argument you're making about the Netanyahu government in Israel) is out of touch with what most "ordinary" (somewhat politically apathetic) people think, and out of touch with what the end result would be. I think the idea that we can do a lot of illiberal stuff to fight MAGA and reverse its actions - in fact, as I understand you, that things are do dire that it is critical that we do a lot of illiberal stuff - suffers from a lack of historical perspective, both in terms of how dire the current situation is and in terms of what the reaction and ultimate result of that will be. To borrow a quote from Alexander Hamilton in Federalist # 1: "For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution."

Again: I understand the anger. But there is a whole lot of daylight, at least as I see it, between following your preferred course of action and "deciding that we just have to live with the dystopia." You can fight evil, and fight fascism, without sacrificing your own sense of humanity, liberty, and justice. I know you see that as some form of weakness. I understand the criticism. I just think that any true progress as a nation is going to have to come from reconciliation, grace, and understanding, not forcible imposition of one's preferred outcome. As someone said on Twitter within the last couple weeks: "if America is going to make it it will be because people choose forgiving things they should never have had to forgive over hurting people they have every right to be angry with."

1. Hamilton lived long ago. He was one guy writing some speculative thoughts in a pre-science age. He made many a mistake. I really don't care about what he has to say, except as a historical figure.

2. You're missing a step in your analysis. I'm all for forgiving. Yes, we will have to forgive things that shouldn't have to be forgiven.

But first we have to win. Sure, let's have a Truth and Reconciliation committee and all that . . . but apartheid as to end first. And that's the problem. We will never win until we make them cry uncle.

3. The way to know that this is necessary is that J6 insurrectionists are now being paraded around by Trump et all as heroes, victims, loyal patriots, etc. We tried to forgive and move on; we tried prosecuting; we tried doing things by the book, and look what happened.

The only way to defeat a fascist is with the boot. After that, we can talk about forgiveness. But we will not have peace ever in America if every single fucking election is the difference between tyranny and freedom. Not every single election should have to be a referendum on science and truth. We must crush those who seek to destroy America, who seek to destroy progress and cast American and the world back into the darkness of the past. Once they are defeated, then we can move on.

And we will not ever win so long as the fascists can count on us being soft. The reason that they can go after universities is that they know we will never go after their bible colleges. The reason they can put troops in the streets of cities is they know that we won't put troops on the county roads. The logic of the prisoners' dilemma is unavoidable. That's what can be so painful about it. The whole thing can never ever work without the deliverance of punishment. That's just math, science, logic.

 

[rodoheel]

These hostages were created as hostages by the very fascism that now seeks to credit their release. That's the part I have a problem with, and that's why your analogy doesn't work. And yes, Hamas is part of that fascism as well. It's not quite fascism in the same way but it's close enough for present purposes.

I just don't understand the elation. I'm not saying it is bad that the hostages are freed. It's just that my reaction is, "good. Now what about all the other people."

The connection between hostages taken in October 2023, and the broader conflict in Gaza, and Trump sending people to El Salvador after he took office more than a year later, is not all that direct. They are connected in the person of Trump, I suppose, in that Trump sent the people to El Salvador and Trump is now taking credit for the release of the hostages. And I'm fairly certain it's that latter part that is really pissing you off, and not without justification. The problem is not the hostages being released; the problem is Trump getting and taking credit for it, and using it to try to add political cover for his own atrocities. I understand it. But you can be angry about that without directing that anger at the hostages and the people who are happy they are free.

And candidly, your responses to people on this thread very blandly saying "I'm glad the hostages are freed" wasn't "Good, now what about all the other people" it was "fuck the hostages." If you can't see the massive difference between those two statements I don't know what to tell you.

 

[superrific]

And candidly, your responses to people on this thread very blandly saying "I'm glad the hostages are freed" wasn't "Good, now what about all the other people" it was "fuck the hostages." If you can't see the massive difference between those two statements I don't know what to tell you.

All right, fair. I didn't realize I had expressed it like that. I was thinking it, but I thought I chose different words. I will edit.

 

[rodoheel]

1. Hamilton lived long ago. He was one guy writing some speculative thoughts in a pre-science age. He made many a mistake. I really don't care about what he has to say, except as a historical figure.

2. You're missing a step in your analysis. I'm all for forgiving. Yes, we will have to forgive things that shouldn't have to be forgiven.

But first we have to win. Sure, let's have a Truth and Reconciliation committee and all that . . . but apartheid as to end first. And that's the problem. We will never win until we make them cry uncle.

3. The way to know that this is necessary is that J6 insurrectionists are now being paraded around by Trump et all as heroes, victims, loyal patriots, etc. We tried to forgive and move on; we tried prosecuting; we tried doing things by the book, and look what happened.

The only way to defeat a fascist is with the boot. After that, we can talk about forgiveness. But we will not have peace ever in America if every single fucking election is the difference between tyranny and freedom. Not every single election should have to be a referendum on science and truth. We must crush those who seek to destroy America, who seek to destroy progress and cast American and the world back into the darkness of the past. Once they are defeated, then we can move on.

And we will not ever win so long as the fascists can count on us being soft. The reason that they can go after universities is that they know we will never go after their bible colleges. The reason they can put troops in the streets of cities is they know that we won't put troops on the county roads. The logic of the prisoners' dilemma is unavoidable. That's what can be so painful about it. The whole thing can never ever work without the deliverance of punishment. That's just math, science, logic.

Again, I simply do not think the prisoner's dilemma is applicable - at all - to the political situation. The metaphor doesn't hold at all when trying to analyze political "victory" in a nation of 350 million people. A victory that half the country sees as illegitimate is never going to lead to long-term change, it will just perpetuate a cycle of violence and oppression. You can discredit Hamilton all you want while still understanding that his words in this case were prescient and insightful. Beating fascists with "the boot" is a last resort when all others have been exhausted, not the only option. And in the modern, freedom-loving USA, for all its problems, the way we're going to beat fascism is by people waking up to the reality that MAGA policies make things worse, not better. We're going to have to beat it fair and square, not by hook or by crook.

17 years ago Obama won 365 electoral votes and clear majorities in both houses of Congress. He did so because right-wing policies (though ones that seem positively quaint by comparison) royally fucked all of us. There were plenty of mistakes made afterwards - most notably a pervasive desire to achieve bipartisan legislation when it was neither necessary nor smart to do so. But it does show that liberals and leftists can win when conservative policies inevitably screw us all over. The information landscape is vasty different now than it was then, which will make things harder. The average American voter is not super bright and not super politically engaged, and can be misled by a deluge of disinformation coming from all directions. But people understand when their life is better vs. worse. God knows they may not always understand all that well what is causing their life to get better or worse, but if Trump keeps on like he's going there won't be any doubt

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Imaging arguing with a straight face that “the return of the hostages is a tragedy.” Straight up ghoulish.

 

[superrific]

feel free to tell me to go fuck myself (I won't be offended)

BTW I never tell anyone to go fuck off if they are speaking the truth, or are in good faith trying to speak the truth. There's nothing wrong with you making those observations. I can always choose to ignore them if I think they are off base.

 

[superrific]

Imaging arguing with a straight face that “the return of the hostages is a tragedy.” Straight up ghoulish.

Just because you don't understand the argument doesn't mean I'm a ghoul.

I am not expressing myself super-lucidly this morning, but the point isn't hard to grasp: if the world throws a party at their return, it merely guarantees more victims.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Just because you don't understand the argument doesn't mean I'm a ghoul.

I am not expressing myself super-lucidly this morning, but the point isn't hard to grasp: if the world throws a party at their return, it merely guarantees more victims.

We can’t read in between the lines on a message board. All we know is what you type. Hopefully we can both agree that the return of these hostages and of the Palestinians held by Israel is a great thing.

 

[superrific]

Again, I simply do not think the prisoner's dilemma is applicable - at all - to the political situation. The metaphor doesn't hold at all when trying to analyze political "victory" in a nation of 350 million people.

We should take that to the other thread to continue, but I have to correct one thing: it's not a metaphor. It's a model. Democracy absolutely is a prisoner's dilemma game when you map out the incentives of the different actors. All of rule of law is.

The reason we have rule of law is not because people are magnanimous. It's because rule of law is better than the alternative. But what is even better than rule of law is rule by me, which is why rule of law is fragile. The only way to restore rule of law as a steady state is to punish those who deviate from it. This is not a metaphor.

 

[superrific]

We can’t read in between the lines on a message board. All we know is what you type. Hopefully we can both agree that the return of these hostages and of the Palestinians held by Israel is a great thing.

Fine, and I said that I'm not expressing myself well because I'm fucking wasted from the worst gastroenteritis I've ever had.

But I do not think it is a great thing. I think it is a great thing FOR THEM. That isn't the same. And it's fine for them to have great things. Sure. Keep your eyes on the prize.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

Why the hell would you say that? Who the fuck cares about 20 hostages when 100K+ have died (that will be the final tally, at least)?

This is why fascists will always beat liberals: they can count on you going soft and "celebrating" shit like this. Bibi didn't give a shit about the hostages. None of his government did. Why the fuck should you?

The only narrative that can be told of this period is one of genocide. There are no bright spots. There was only death and destruction. Israel must never be permitted to regain any status in the community of nations; it must forever be a pariah, unless and until they reform themselves as thoroughly as South Africa, post WWII Germany and Japan.

Fuck the hostages. I mean, nothing personally against them of course. But they can't hear the words you or I write. We write to an audience of people living in the new fascism, and in this world, 20 people is nothing.

Never mind that last bit. That was the wrong expression and not reflective of my actual attitude here. It's that I don't favor kumbaya moments while the battle rages. You can judge for yourself whether you are doing that or not. I can't and won't be the judge of that.

lol keep raging keyboard warrior.

 

[Calheel]

So now these 20 people are freed from their ordeal. Meanwhile, Trump shipped 10x that many people to the prison in El Salvador where they will be tortured, starved and raped. Do we just not care about them? Or are we going to have a song and dance party when they get released as well, and then the next group, and the next group, and so on. For instance, Kilmar is probably going to be freed by Judge Xinis. That's great and all, but Kilmar is a tiny, tiny % of the victims.
All I can say is that if I were the family of the people murdered by Trump in boats off Venezuela, I'd be really fucking pissed off to see people joyously celebrating the return of hostages. And even more so if I was related to the people who were starving to death in Gaza while Trump lifted nary a finger.

Maybe I'm just bizarre in my thinking. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. If you are related to the hostages or they had meaning in your life before all of this, then by all means party away. They are people; they have friends and family; they should enjoy the end of their ordeals. As for the rest of us, I just don't get it.

You could apply the same logic to mass shootings.

Hostage taking is effective because the public personalizes the plights of the family members. Same thing with shootings.

In the grand scheme of things, mass shootings are a small percentage of gun deaths and hostages are a small percentage of war deaths.

 

[superrific]

lol keep raging keyboard warrior.

GFY

 

[Geisterfahrer]

GFY

So charming!

 

[chrissteel]

This is more negotiated surrender than a peace agreement.