Israel Hamas War, West Bank | Israel accuses Hamas of violating Cease Fire

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ZenMode said:
Right. Taken advantage of....by a rapist.

It sounds like we are in disagreement on who's at fault between the two sides of your scenario.
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What we are in disagreement on is the responsibility of civilized people to do the right thing in the face of others being victimized. Palestinians are the unquestioned victims of this war. Period. Hamas is rhe largest cause of that, no doubt. Israel is a close second. That Hamas does not care about Palestinians does not excuse the callous actions of Israel toward them.
 
ZenMode said:
Of course. .

They have damaged portions of hospitals, churches and probably a mall. Unfortunately, Hamas fighters/leaders likes to use civilian locations to hide in.

I wonder why they would do that?

Yes, some civilians have died. That's how war works. In nearly 2 years, about 55k civilians have been killed. An average of 76/day with military weapons capable of much, much worse.

Hamas killed over 1,100 civilians in about 8 hours with handheld guns and knives.


Agree. I bet Israel would love to live next to non-crazy people who constantly attack them.
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Hamas killed 1,195 people on October 7th, 815 of which were civilians. That’s if you believe Israel’s own estimates and believe theire were no friendly fire/Hannibal directive casualties.

Israel’s own intelligence believes that 83% of the casualties in Gaza so far have been civilians.

www.theguardian.com

Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

So essentially a ragtag group of terrorists who flew homemade paragliders into Israel did a better job of avoiding civilian casualties than the most moral army in the world.
 
wmheel1287 said:
What we are in disagreement on is the responsibility of civilized people to do the right thing in the face of others being victimized.
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I don't think we disagree, at least not as much as you may believe.
wmheel1287 said:
Palestinians are the unquestioned victims of this war. Period.
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Agree.
wmheel1287 said:
Hamas is rhe largest cause of that, no doubt.
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Agree
wmheel1287 said:
Israel is a close second.
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A "close" second?
wmheel1287 said:
That Hamas does not care about Palestinians does not excuse the callous actions of Israel toward them.
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What callous actions are you referring to?

What I see is Israel being incredibly cautious with Palestinian civilian lives. This is clear not only with their actions: the fact that Israel is literally texting civilians, dropping pamphlets, calling civilians/hospitals and generally going above and beyond the actions of ANY military I've ever heard of and is also reflected the raw civilian death data after two years, which, given the environment in which the fighting is happening, seems very low.
 
nrsair said:
Hamas killed 1,195 people on October 7th, 815 of which were civilians. That’s if you believe Israel’s own estimates and believe theire were no friendly fire/Hannibal directive casualties.

Israel’s own intelligence believes that 83% of the casualties in Gaza so far have been civilians.

www.theguardian.com

Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

So essentially a ragtag group of terrorists who flew homemade paragliders into Israel did a better job of avoiding civilian casualties than the most moral army in the world.
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Ok, so pick a number that you "believe" to be Israelis killed by Hamas on October 7. Now, take that number and figure out how many civilians Israel would have to have killed by now if they matched the death rate of Hamas on 10/7.

Let me know what you come up with.
 
ZenMode said:
Ok, so pick a number that you "believe" to be Israelis killed by Hamas on October 7. Now, take that number and figure out how many civilians Israel would have to have killed by now if they matched the death rate of Hamas on 10/7.

Let me know what you come up with.
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I understand number are hard.

By Israel’s own numbers: 815/1195 =0.682. 68% civilian casualties.

Again by Israel’s own numbers as reported in the Guardian: 8900 Hamas fighters listed as dead or probably dead, 53,000 total Palestinians dead. That means 8900/53000 =0.168. So 16.8% of the dead are Hamas, meaning 83.2% are civilians.
 
nrsair said:
I understand number are hard.

By Israel’s own numbers: 815/1195 =0.682. 68% civilian casualties.

Again by Israel’s own numbers as reported in the Guardian: 8900 Hamas fighters listed as dead or probably dead, 53,000 total Palestinians dead. That means 8900/53000 =0.168. So 16.8% of the dead are Hamas, meaning 83.2% are civilians.
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Numbers are very easy, but that not what I asked for.

Let's say that Israel's civilian death count is accurate for 10/7 - we'll say it was 800 civilians total. I like to use round numbers because I'm not very smart, ya know.

That happened in approximately 8 hours. So, in one day, if they were allowed to continue, unabated, for a full day (24 hours) Hamas would have killed about 2400 people. Keep in mind, that was using nothing more than handheld guns and knives and moving mostly on foot once they landed their "airplanes".

There have been approximately 692 days of fighting since 10/7/2023.

So, if Israel only matched Hamas rate of civilians deaths, despite having legit military weapons/bombs/tanks, etc, Israel would have to kill about 1,660,800 civilians by now.

They've killed about 55k.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't think we disagree, at least not as much as you may believe.

Agree.

Agree

A "close" second?

What callous actions are you referring to?

What I see is Israel being incredibly cautious with Palestinian civilian lives. This is clear not only with their actions: the fact that Israel is literally texting civilians, dropping pamphlets, calling civilians/hospitals and generally going above and beyond the actions of ANY military I've ever heard of and is also reflected the raw civilian death data after two years, which, given the environment in which the fighting is happening, seems very low.
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If you cannot see the continually callous treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government, then you cannot have a rational conversation on the matter. Israel controls EVERYTHING that enters or leaves Gaza and has for decades. They own it all. The suffering, the starvation, the death, the misery. Not only do they own all of that, a HUGE amount of the hostility that they purport to be trying to fight was continually exacerbated by Israel over the last 40+ years of settlement activity.
 
wmheel1287 said:
If you cannot see the continually callous treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government, then you cannot have a rational conversation on the matter. Israel controls EVERYTHING that enters or leaves Gaza and has for decades. They own it all. The suffering, the starvation, the death, the misery. Not only do they own all of that, a HUGE amount of the hostility that they purport to be trying to fight was continually exacerbated by Israel over the last 40+ years of settlement activity.
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Israel has tried to 'control' everything, especially what was imported. They did not do a very good job, as October 7th proved.

Israel has also tried to completely drive Hamas out of Gaza and has failed.

Israel has tried to get control of Gaza to allow organizations to distribute aid... and has failed.

Israel has openly expressed it's desire (intent) to take complete control of Gaza to a) effectively distribute aid and b) get full control of Hamas (which allows them to effectively distribute aid)... and many people lost their minds over that.

I'm not entirely sure what they should do at this point.
 
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ZenMode said:
Israel has tried to 'control' everything, especially what was imported. They did not do a very good job, as October 7th proved.

Israel has also tried to completely drive Hamas out of Gaza and has failed.

Israel has tried to get control of Gaza to allow organizations to distribute aid... and has failed.

Israel has openly expressed it's desire (intent) to take complete control of Gaza to a) effectively distribute aid and b) get full control of Hamas (which allows them to effectively distribute aid)... and many people lost their minds over that.

I'm not entirely sure what they should do at this point.
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Fucking stop killing people and pull their military back into their own borders would be a good start. Allowing international peacekeepers to have full authority and access into Gaza would be even better. Coming to the table to discuss a Palestinian state and abandoning all of the illegal settlements would be best.
 
ZenMode said:
Israel has tried to 'control' everything, especially what was imported. They did not do a very good job, as October 7th proved.

Israel has also tried to completely drive Hamas out of Gaza and has failed.

Israel has tried to get control of Gaza to allow organizations to distribute aid... and has failed.

Israel has openly expressed it's desire (intent) to take complete control of Gaza to a) effectively distribute aid and b) get full control of Hamas (which allows them to effectively distribute aid)... and many people lost their minds over that.

I'm not entirely sure what they should do at this point.
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Gaza belonged to Egypt from 1948-1967. The West Bank was part of Jordan's UN charter. Egypt and Jordan no longer want the burden, but have agreed to establish watchful oversight of an Arab Palestinian State.

Bibi is committing war crimes to keep himself in power.

Hamas is more than OK with babies, children, and mothers killed - they are using their deaths as leverage. Yet Hamas has the support of the majority or Palestinians in polls. Gaza/Palestine fronted terrorists (PLO, PA, Hamas, Hezbollah) for 63 years. Killed RFK Sr. Destroyed the 1972 Olympic games.

...and the "Peace President" is letting it happen. If we're looking for the "good guys" in this mix, there really aren't any ...perhaps Egypt and Jordan and Saudis in offering a solution, but they are not pushing it. The Palestinian terrorist network has been a burr in their asses since 1962.
 
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