Israel in our Politics

Paine said:
Settlement expansion, the structural privileging of Jewish citizens over Arab citizens, and the slow strangulation of Palestinian political and economic life didn’t begin with Netanyahu and won’t end with him. Rabin and Barak, for example, both also presided over settlement growth.

The core issue is the structure itself.The Nation-State Law codifies a hierarchy that predates Netanyahu. We’ve spent 30 years betting on the two-state solution and in that time the West Bank has been carved up to the point where a viable Palestinian state is essentially a geographic fiction.

I’d argue the only just and workable endpoint is a single democratic state with full equal rights for everyone: Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim, whatever. We did something like this after the Civil War during Reconstruction. It was flawed and ultimately sabotaged by organized violence, but I think that the failure of the attempt doesn’t discredit the principle.

IMO, the most realistic path there runs through Washington. Israel’s current position is only sustainable with unconditional American backing. That backing is not as solid as it once was, particularly among younger Americans and younger American Jews.
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From my perspective, there is almost no backing of Israel in the younger cohorts. Even the bros in MAGA land dont give a shit about Israel. They have managed to poison my generation against them, thats for sure.
 
MendotoManteo said:
We've seen enough now to know what's happening. Gaza is a genocide. Plain and simple. What Israel doing in the West Bank with the settlers further confirms it. Just lawless.

I guess "Never Again" doesn't mean ever again. As long as it applies to them.

Somehow they became the Nazis.

Absolutely despicable behavior, and I am ashamed that our tax dollars support it. I'll not vote for another candidate again who accepts AIPAC or other Israeli influence money.
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It seems to me that too many have exceptionalized the Holocaust rather than integrating it into the wider history of colonial genocide, and that exceptionalization has done a lot of ideological work in the ongoing genocide.

Hannah Arendt argued you cannot understand the Holocaust without situating it within European colonialism. The racial categorization and industrial killing we associate with Nazism were pioneered in German and Belgian African colonies decades earlier. What horrified Europeans about Nazism was that colonial methods were being applied to white Europeans.

“Never Again” as an exclusively Jewish framework became a shield against the structural critique of Israel as a Jewish nation state and of settler colonialism more broadly.
 
Paine said:
It seems to me that too many have exceptionalized the Holocaust rather than integrating it into the wider history of colonial genocide, and that exceptionalization has done a lot of ideological work in the ongoing genocide.

Hannah Arendt argued you cannot understand the Holocaust without situating it within European colonialism. The racial categorization and industrial killing we associate with Nazism were pioneered in German and Belgian African colonies decades earlier. What horrified Europeans about Nazism was that colonial methods were being applied to white Europeans.

“Never Again” as an exclusively Jewish framework became a shield against the structural critique of Israel as a Jewish nation state and of settler colonialism more broadly.
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I largely agree although I will note the tactics that the British used in the Boer War.

However, there are, imo, some serious extras involved. It was immediate and fresh. It was caught on camera so there's more than imagination and fading memories to keep the images of the atrocities alive and the drive to a homeland in Israel that led to a dramatic shift in the thinly veiled antisemitism of the average white American to a zeal for the nation of Israel.

I also can't speak for others but I've always been aware of the millions of Romany, handicapped, criminals and gays that went through the concentration and extermination camps.
 
Paine said:
It seems to me that too many have exceptionalized the Holocaust rather than integrating it into the wider history of colonial genocide, and that exceptionalization has done a lot of ideological work in the ongoing genocide.

Hannah Arendt argued you cannot understand the Holocaust without situating it within European colonialism. The racial categorization and industrial killing we associate with Nazism were pioneered in German and Belgian African colonies decades earlier. What horrified Europeans about Nazism was that colonial methods were being applied to white Europeans.

“Never Again” as an exclusively Jewish framework became a shield against the structural critique of Israel as a Jewish nation state and of settler colonialism more broadly.
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That is very well put.

That aside, they're just flat out killing people for living space.

You're a smart dude, and I'm sure you've seen them, but nothing like a video of Israeli settlers in the West Bank doing "their thing" to convince you of the nature of the general Israeli state.

It is unacceptable. No more tax dollars to Israel.

It gets us into another conversation but there was a picture of Epstein released where he has a "Greater Israel" map in the background.

And our media just pretends like he wasn't an Israeli agent/asset. Hell, they've made more hay about him being a Russian agent/asset, which isn't true.

Israel is such a pollution to our politics. I do not wish ill upon any Jewish person. They're just people, like ourselves. But I cannot support what is going on. You've seen it. I've seen it. Intelligent people with integrity all see it and know what it is.
 
It seems most here are on the same page, but if you're not, just you look up Israeli settler videos from the West Bank.

You talk about getting your blood boiled. The things they do to the Arabs there are just complete atrocities.
 
finesse said:
I largely agree although I will note the tactics that the British used in the Boer War.

However, there are, imo, some serious extras involved. It was immediate and fresh. It was caught on camera so there's more than imagination and fading memories to keep the images of the atrocities alive and the drive to a homeland in Israel that led to a dramatic shift in the thinly veiled antisemitism of the average white American to a zeal for the nation of Israel.

I also can't speak for others but I've always been aware of the millions of Romany, handicapped, criminals and gays that went through the concentration and extermination camps.
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Right. The Boer War fits within the same argument, another colonial precedent predating Nazism. Hell, Britain was still running concentration camps during the Mau Mau uprising in the 50s.

I didn’t mean to imply that people were unaware of the other victim groups in the Holocaust. My specific point is that the Zionist nation state project has weaponized Holocaust memory in a way that exceptionalizes Jewish suffering to justify what is itself a project of racial dispossession.
 
Permit me a brief rant. But regarding Oct. 7th, they knew! Israel knew! We know for a fact their government knew an attack was going to occur. US media hasn't reported about it because, well. But they knew.

We know why Netanyahu allowed it. Because he was going to undergo corruption charges.

But why did Hamas do it? That's always been the thing for me. Why did they do what they most certainly understood would be "suicidal"?

I think it's precisely because of what has happened. They knew Israel for what it is and did their actions for the long term. That the backlash would eventually be so bad only complete assholes could support Israel.

This is not a defense of Hamas. And I almost feel stupid for even having to say that. But it's an assessment.
 
MendotoManteo said:
It seems most here are on the same page, but if you're not, just you look up Israeli settler videos from the West Bank.

You talk about getting your blood boiled. The things they do to the Arabs there are just complete atrocities.
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I find the Israeli settler movement the most dystopian thing I have learned about in the last few years. Yes there are more heinous things occurring in the world (Russia’s invasion, ethnic cleansing in Gaza by the Israeli government, and more), but the unadulterated inhumanity expressed by many of the settlers towards Palestinians is truly gobsmacking and genocidal. They truly act as though Palestinians are not human but rather some invasive species to be run off or eliminated. Awful awful stuff.
 
pspsps said:
I find the Israeli settler movement the most dystopian thing I have learned about in the last few years. Yes there are more heinous things occurring in the world (Russia’s invasion, ethnic cleansing in Gaza by the Israeli government, and more), but the unadulterated inhumanity expressed by many of the settlers towards Palestinians is truly gobsmacking and genocidal. They truly act as though Palestinians are not human but rather some invasive species to be run off or eliminated. Awful awful stuff.
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Exactly correct. And the fact that we as a nation have continued to support the government that does this is appalling.
 
pspsps said:
I find the Israeli settler movement the most dystopian thing I have learned about in the last few years. Yes there are more heinous things occurring in the world (Russia’s invasion, ethnic cleansing in Gaza by the Israeli government, and more), but the unadulterated inhumanity expressed by many of the settlers towards Palestinians is truly gobsmacking and genocidal. They truly act as though Palestinians are not human but rather some invasive species to be run off or eliminated. Awful awful stuff.
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Features of every settler colonial society.
 
I’ve been trying to figure out why Iran is supposedly a natural ally of the US?

It’s been 46 years since Iranians took the US Embassy.

It’s been 72 years since the U.S. helped topple the elected government. Which brought on the Shah……

We fucked them…..in 1953 and from 1953-1979.

Why would Iranians (Persians) like the US? Trust the US?
 
A multi ethnic/religious state in Israel would never survive and the violence caused by its creation would be worse than we have now. I believe a two state solution is the best option for peace and stability in the area. Unfortunately, it seems the window of opportunity for this possibility closed with the second intifada...or at least with the disengagement from Gaza and the election of Hamas. There is no one left who supports a two state solution in Israel. The Left in Israel has been whittled down to a nub. With or without support in the west, the Right in Israel will continue to push Palestinians out of the West Bank. The Arab world would largely rather acquiesce to this reality than continue 70+ years of hostile, adversarial relations with its Israeli neighbor. That is reality regardless of the international community's protestations.

No one likes Netanyahu. His popularity in Israel is very low. He survives largely due to the quirkiness of the Israeli parliamentary system and its ability to empower patched together minority coalitions.

There is a considerable amount of discourse regarding Israel's "influence" on American politics. Most of the individuals and organizations pushing this influence are actually Americans, so the more accurate statement might be that Americans are influencing US policy for Israel's interests. Most of AIPAC is funded by Americans. This is not an Israeli organization.

I'm not going to engage in a back and forth discourse on this subject here. I find it a frustrating waste of time. But note - I support the Jewish state of Israel. I think the world needs a "Jewish" State of Israel. I do not support Netanyahu nor the settler movement and I think the Right in Israel is playing a very dangerous game of "winner take all." Time in this area of the world is measured in millennia and who knows what the future holds? One can win every battle and still eventually lose the war. And many of the people spearheading the Right in Israel are incredibly myopic.
 
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MendotoManteo said:
Israel is such a pollution to our politics. I do not wish ill upon any Jewish person. They're just people, like ourselves. But I cannot support what is going on. You've seen it. I've seen it. Intelligent people with integrity all see it and know what it is.
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Your interchanging of "Jewish person" and "Israel" is troubling.
 
It would help if people would actually look at the pretty conclusive evidence that the whole captivity in Egypt, Exodus, Ten Commandments and Promised Land has little of no basis in reality and certainly shouldn't have the affect in the world that it has today. All the Abrahamic religions have a lot to answer for.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Your interchanging of "Jewish person" and "Israel" is troubling.
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Seems the post you are responding to did the exact opposite of that...made a point to say their issue is with the Israeli secular government, not the Jewish people.
 
p5mmr9 said:
I'm not going to engage in a back and forth discourse on this subject here. I find it a frustrating waste of time. But note - I support the Jewish state of Israel. I think the world needs a "Jewish" State of Israel. I do not support Netanyahu nor the settler movement and I think the Right in Israel is playing a very dangerous game of "winner take all." Time in this area of the world is measured in millennia and who knows what the future holds. One can win every battle and still eventually lose the war. And many of the people spearheading the Right in Israel are incredibly myopic.
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What policies or characteristics would make the “Jewish State of Israel” Jewish?
 
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