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Israel launches attack on Iran

Huh? said:
I'm confident that every other President this century would make the decision to bomb Fordow. While it's certainly not a no brainer, the changing landscape on the ground means that we have a high likelihood we can eradicate Iran's current nuclear capability when Hezbollah and Hamas can't counter.

This accomplishes an important near-term strategic objective and would also bring military action against Iran to a conclusion.

I am skeptical that negotiation will achieve any useful result. Recent history indicates that Iran is hellbent on developing a bomb and negotiation is being used to buy time.

Not an easy call, but a pretty clear one, in my opinion.
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Ah yes, unanimous support from the people who brought us Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan. Endless war; what could go wrong?
 
RaiGuy said:
You directly defend a government committing a genocide and that is starving a population. Your only counter argument is to name call and call me a terrorist supporter. You show that you know nothing about the history of the region.
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And you to refuse to address why that "genocide" (I don't characterize it as genocide but I understand you need the shock value of the word) is occurring. Hint, it isn't because Bibi hates palestinians as Hitler hated the jews.
 
Callatoroy said:
What is sad is that you seem incapable of discussing politics with anyone you disagree with without making it personal. That's your flaw, not mine. I'm perfectly capable of discussing a political issue with you without attacking you personally or having a disagreement or political impasse turn nasty. So far I have been told to fuck off, I have no decency, a shithead, blah blah blah. I'm not the one being nasty. You guys just can't rise above it.
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My flaw was in giving you a chance in the first place. You are undeserving of such.
 
RaiGuy said:
Ah yes, please, educate me then on why?

One sec, let me get ready for this

Interest Popcorn GIF

ok, i'm ready
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The simple reason is that he is tired of kicking the can down the road. Decades of being attacked, retaliating but only inflicting enough damage to buy a couple of years and then another attack. Oct 7 and the savagery changed all that. He / Israel has had enough and the policy was to wipe out hamas. You can disagree with that as many have after the emotional shock of Oct 7 wore off and the unusual high death toll of palestinians started to mount. But most people didn't know that hamas was hiding under hospitals, religious houses, schools, etc. where they couldn't be attacked without causing people like you and many others on this board to scream stop because of the palestinian deaths that was inevitable. Nothing wrong with that and it is certainly a logical pov. However, Israel was faced with two options if they were to achieve the goal of wiping out hamas. Root then out door to door and suffer high casualties or bomb them and suffer fewer israeli deaths. Not unlike the decision Truman faced but on a much smaller scale. Palestine, in its depressed state sold its political soul to hamas because it thought hamas was going to offer the best option of an improved economic way of life and that hamas was dedicated to achieving a palestinian state. The PA in the WB offered zero options and was feckless in influencing hamas. The miscalculation and tragedy is that hamas didn't give a damn about the palestinian people except in how they could be used and exploited in their goal to attack israel. That has become easy to see now.
Oct 7 will turn out to be a terrible military decision for Iran. They failed to understand how far they could push before israel before it was to far. You characterize it as genocide and from a palestinian pov I can understand that. You also have to understand israel's view that it is existential to them and they will no longer live beside someone who would commit another Oct 7. You don't have to like it or agree with it but to act as if that isn't a rational thought then you are being intentionally obtuse. Is israel justified in killing 100 palestinians in its effort to kill 10 hamas fighters hiding under a hospital? To you obviously no. But to israel it feels its existence depends on it. You acting as if hamas and iran didn't bring this on the palestinians is just wrong. Before Oct 7, israel wasn't bombing schools and hospitals for the hell of it. You acting as if the palestinians don't share in some of their fate is also wrong. The PA didn't have a charter of the elimination of the israeli state. Hamas did and you can't align yourself with that knowing you are caught in the middle. You continually act as if all of the suffering is at the hands of israel when it just isn't.
 


IMG_7517.jpeg

“… It could also isolate American minesweepers in the Persian Gulf on one side of the strait. Two defense officials indicated that the Navy was looking to disperse its ships in the gulf so that they would be less vulnerable. A Navy official declined to comment, citing operational security. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

… “Mining also hurts Iran; they would lose income from oil they sell to China,” he said. “Now though, Iranian leadership is much more concerned with regime survival, which will drive their decisions.”…”
 
Callatoroy said:
The simple reason is that he is tired of kicking the can down the road. Decades of being attacked, retaliating but only inflicting enough damage to buy a couple of years and then another attack. Oct 7 and the savagery changed all that. He / Israel has had enough and the policy was to wipe out hamas. You can disagree with that as many have after the emotional shock of Oct 7 wore off and the unusual high death toll of palestinians started to mount. But most people didn't know that hamas was hiding under hospitals, religious houses, schools, etc. where they couldn't be attacked without causing people like you and many others on this board to scream stop because of the palestinian deaths that was inevitable. Nothing wrong with that and it is certainly a logical pov. However, Israel was faced with two options if they were to achieve the goal of wiping out hamas. Root then out door to door and suffer high casualties or bomb them and suffer fewer israeli deaths. Not unlike the decision Truman faced but on a much smaller scale. Palestine, in its depressed state sold its political soul to hamas because it thought hamas was going to offer the best option of an improved economic way of life and that hamas was dedicated to achieving a palestinian state. The PA in the WB offered zero options and was feckless in influencing hamas. The miscalculation and tragedy is that hamas didn't give a damn about the palestinian people except in how they could be used and exploited in their goal to attack israel. That has become easy to see now.
Oct 7 will turn out to be a terrible military decision for Iran. They failed to understand how far they could push before israel before it was to far. You characterize it as genocide and from a palestinian pov I can understand that. You also have to understand israel's view that it is existential to them and they will no longer live beside someone who would commit another Oct 7. You don't have to like it or agree with it but to act as if that isn't a rational thought then you are being intentionally obtuse. Is israel justified in killing 100 palestinians in its effort to kill 10 hamas fighters hiding under a hospital? To you obviously no. But to israel it feels its existence depends on it. You acting as if hamas and iran didn't bring this on the palestinians is just wrong. Before Oct 7, israel wasn't bombing schools and hospitals for the hell of it. You acting as if the palestinians don't share in some of their fate is also wrong. The PA didn't have a charter of the elimination of the israeli state. Hamas did and you can't align yourself with that knowing you are caught in the middle. You continually act as if all of the suffering is at the hands of israel when it just isn't.
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You leave out all the history before Oct 7 and before Hamas even existed. I’m tired of repeating the same things. You make it seem like Israel is always the victim but you don’t mention the illegal occupation, blockade, or apartheid system. You think that Palestinians want to wipe out Israel because they hate Jews, and that’s not true. You fail to bring up the Palestinians that were killed in 2023 prior to Oct 7th. You fail to bring up the Palestinians that were killed by snipers in Gaza as they peacefully protested in the years prior to 2023. I could go on and on, but it won’t matter because you are going to ignore all those facts and keep pushing the narrative that Israel is always the victim.
 
dukeman92 said:
Not sure those things can be accomplished without boots on the ground.
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To be clear, I don't advocate boots on the ground under any scenario. If you take out Fordow, you've crippled their nuclear capability for a decade. You likely will achieve that without an invasion force.

I don't think regime change should be an objective - we have had little to no success to date in that region.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Trump using a tactical nuclear weapon in Iran would be the single greatest mistake in US presidential history.

Legitimizing the use of modern nuclear weapons would devastate the world and mark a dark turn in global history.
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It would start a years, decades, long cascade of large areas of the planet becoming uninhabitable from radiation, at the same time climate change is drastically reducing the carrying capacity of entire regions.
 
wmheel1287 said:
My flaw was in giving you a chance in the first place. You are undeserving of such.
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Whatever. I don't view anyone as undeserving (even the guy I take as a defender of Oct 7). I'm just not afraid of, or take personally opposing views. So apparently I'm way more tolerant as you.
 
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