Issue discussion: Deficit and national debt

And as discussed previously, there's good and bad debt. I believe a common misconception is that the government budget is just like a household budget. Even my minimal knowledge understands that there are considerable differences.

We can discuss more, but in general why would we pay taxes on the purchase of stocks before we sell them and receive the benefit?
In the extreme example I gave -folks literally have Billions of dollars of wealth-which can leverage into loans etc Its real wealth And in this example the "purchase of stocks" was really not the issue . A milion dollars of stock purchased is now worth 100 Bill ( I am making up numbers)... Meanwhile the millions of folks making 50,000 are paying an effective rate of like 10% . It is an incredibly ineffecient way to collect taxes-I won't use the word unFair-but will use the word "stupid"!
 
I vaguely remember this as well. In one of the classes I took for my mba, the prof made a point to correct misperceptions about the national debt, and why it is not nearly the problem that people try to make it out to be.

I also remember that a point was made that a lot of our foreign debt is owed to countries who also in turn owe US a lot of money as well. While it may not completely cancel each other out, it would result in me giving you $10 that I owe you, and then you giving me $7 back that you owed me. Those debts don’t come off the books just because they cancel each other. But people only look at the debt side, not the total back and forth.

Now, it’s been a looong time since that class, so I may not have everything exactly right, but I distinctly remember walking away from class with my mind blown that the National debt is really not a problem.
As long as we don't go to us and demand that we immediately repay ourselves, then we should be ok ;)
 
Well, a few reasons.

1. First, often stocks are never sold. When you pass the stock to your heirs, it's not considered a realization event. In fact, the heir gets a stepped up basis. So let's say you buy a stock for $10 and when you're on your deathbed it's $100. If you sell it, you'd need to pay cap gains tax on $90. But if you die and leave it to your kids, not only do they not have to pay, they get a cost basis of $100. So if then goes up to $200, they only pay cap gains on the $100.

This particular issue could be solved, in part, by eliminating stepped-up basis.

2. Second, there's a way really rich people can turn stocks into cash without paying tax: namely, they can borrow money and pledge their stock as collateral. This is what Larry Ellison does -- he has like $40B or some crazy amount of Oracle stock, and then he borrows money from Oracle secured by some of that stock. So he gets to live like a king tax-free (and he does!). Eventually Ellison will just default on his loan and the company will seize back his stock, but you see, he's never sold it. He got all the cash.

Now maybe the tax code recognizes that gain when the company kept the collateral upon a default and there is tax due at that point. I don't know. That's a question for tax pros. But he will have gotten 30, 40 years of enjoying cash pulled from his equity without paying a dime in taxes.

This problem could be rectified by my pet tax provision (I came up with this myself but I would be utterly shocked if I was the first; there's probably a small literature on it), which is to treat a pledge of securities as a realization event. So if you borrow against your stock, first you have to make the government right. Now, maybe you only want this rule for certain income or asset classes -- maybe it's only a thing if the amount of stock pledged is greater than a million or something like that.

3. Or, we could just kill lots of these issues by taxing gains on year to year based on stock appreciation. It doesn't have to be yearly; maybe the appreciation would be measured every three years, or on a rolling basis, to smooth out the gains and not create situations where someone pays a lot of tax in a year when the stock shoots up, and then has to claim the tax back if the stock depreciates. But these are details and weeds that can be worked out.

It would also be applicable only to large stock holdings. And if we did that, then the stockholders could raise the cash needed to pay the tax by borrowing against the stock. You know, what they do now, except instead of buying the largest yachts ever made (like Ellison), they could contribute a little to the federal budget.
Thank you, I didn't realize this could happen.
 
In the extreme example I gave -folks literally have Billions of dollars of wealth-which can leverage into loans etc Its real wealth And in this example the "purchase of stocks" was really not the issue . A milion dollars of stock purchased is now worth 100 Bill ( I am making up numbers)... Meanwhile the millions of folks making 50,000 are paying an effective rate of like 10% . It is an incredibly ineffecient way to collect taxes-I won't use the word unFair-but will use the word "stupid"!
Another good point.

It would seem that these "Loop holes" would be easily fixed...

If anyone wanted them fixed...
 
So, overall what is everyone's opinion of having such a large debt? If a large portion of it is circular, does it really matter.
 
Is it more important to balance the budget?

What is your opinion on decreasing defense spending? We could cut our defense spending by 50% and still be the #1 nation in the world in this category. Why don't we do that? Use the money to make our education system the best in the world or our medical system the best in the world?
 
Is it more important to balance the budget?

What is your opinion on decreasing defense spending? We could cut our defense spending by 50% and still be the #1 nation in the world in this category. Why don't we do that? Use the money to make our education system the best in the world or our medical system the best in the world?
The biggest challenge to Defense spending appears to be .........What to spend it on ? I assumme we will dive hard into some unbelievable and unbelievably expensive new gadgets... satellites with laser beams Orangeturd wants a "dome"
 
Well, a few reasons.

1. First, often stocks are never sold. When you pass the stock to your heirs, it's not considered a realization event. In fact, the heir gets a stepped up basis. So let's say you buy a stock for $10 and when you're on your deathbed it's $100. If you sell it, you'd need to pay cap gains tax on $90. But if you die and leave it to your kids, not only do they not have to pay, they get a cost basis of $100. So if then goes up to $200, they only pay cap gains on the $100.

This particular issue could be solved, in part, by eliminating stepped-up basis.

2. Second, there's a way really rich people can turn stocks into cash without paying tax: namely, they can borrow money and pledge their stock as collateral. This is what Larry Ellison does -- he has like $40B or some crazy amount of Oracle stock, and then he borrows money from Oracle secured by some of that stock. So he gets to live like a king tax-free (and he does!). Eventually Ellison will just default on his loan and the company will seize back his stock, but you see, he's never sold it. He got all the cash.

Now maybe the tax code recognizes that gain when the company kept the collateral upon a default and there is tax due at that point. I don't know. That's a question for tax pros. But he will have gotten 30, 40 years of enjoying cash pulled from his equity without paying a dime in taxes.

This problem could be rectified by my pet tax provision (I came up with this myself but I would be utterly shocked if I was the first; there's probably a small literature on it), which is to treat a pledge of securities as a realization event. So if you borrow against your stock, first you have to make the government right. Now, maybe you only want this rule for certain income or asset classes -- maybe it's only a thing if the amount of stock pledged is greater than a million or something like that.

3. Or, we could just kill lots of these issues by taxing gains on year to year based on stock appreciation. It doesn't have to be yearly; maybe the appreciation would be measured every three years, or on a rolling basis, to smooth out the gains and not create situations where someone pays a lot of tax in a year when the stock shoots up, and then has to claim the tax back if the stock depreciates. But these are details and weeds that can be worked out.

It would also be applicable only to large stock holdings. And if we did that, then the stockholders could raise the cash needed to pay the tax by borrowing against the stock. You know, what they do now, except instead of buying the largest yachts ever made (like Ellison), they could contribute a little to the federal budget.
I was mad at #3 until I read your last paragraph. Mark to market, universally applied, would crush those of us who are in the shallow end (or kiddie pool) of the investor class, and buying dividend stocks for retirement.
 
I was mad at #3 until I read your last paragraph. Mark to market, universally applied, would crush those of us who are in the shallow end (or kiddie pool) of the investor class, and buying dividend stocks for retirement.
Yea
Start with 50 mill or some such as to the "kicking in " number
 
I was mad at #3 until I read your last paragraph. Mark to market, universally applied, would crush those of us who are in the shallow end (or kiddie pool) of the investor class, and buying dividend stocks for retirement.
Yeah, there would be no reason to apply it to small portfolios. You wouldn't even get that much money from it, because small investors rarely hold gobs of heavily appreciated stock.

The craziest tax stories involve the heirs of old time companies that have grown huge. I think I read somewhere that the cost basis (accounting cost) for the Colgate stock held by the heirs was something like $0.001 dollars. But the tax basis is close to market price. They have taken advantage of that stepped up basis and tax deferral basically forever. That is a multi-billion dollar fortune that WAS NEVER TAXED AND NEVER WILL BE.

That's where the money is for a mark to market tax system. Not someone who buys an index fund at age 45 and watches it triple over 20 years before paying tax on the gain.
 
Deficits and debt do matter in the long run. First world economies have much more credibility, allowing them to take on higher debt loads and run up bigger deficits. The problem when you have a high debt load and/or large deficits is that you have less room to maneuver when faced with uncertain events. We saw that in COVID...some countries just didn't have the financial capacity to address some of the impacts of COVD (ranging from allocating the necessary medical resources to economic stimulus); those countries either took on staggering debt or fell short.

I had been assured on the previous board that tax revenue, not spending was the issue. Still think there are opportunities on the spending side. Defense is always a tempting target, but I'm not sure given the current geopolitical challenges that this is a time for deep cuts in that sector. In a less conflicted world, applying some of that money to infrastructure and other areas of concern would make sense.
 
Deficits and debt do matter in the long run. First world economies have much more credibility, allowing them to take on higher debt loads and run up bigger deficits. The problem when you have a high debt load and/or large deficits is that you have less room to maneuver when faced with uncertain events. We saw that in COVID...some countries just didn't have the financial capacity to address some of the impacts of COVD (ranging from allocating the necessary medical resources to economic stimulus); those countries either took on staggering debt or fell short.

I had been assured on the previous board that tax revenue, not spending was the issue. Still think there are opportunities on the spending side. Defense is always a tempting target, but I'm not sure given the current geopolitical challenges that this is a time for deep cuts in that sector. In a less conflicted world, applying some of that money to infrastructure and other areas of concern would make sense.
And neither are the big "safety nets going to be cut . So that leaves not much to cut . Now we have essentially cut a lot by freezing many programs for years at a time There is that.
 
Aint that the Dickens...we have some similar issues down here (though I feel more confident in knowing what to cut here). No one wants to mess with the safety nets even though some of them can be inefficient or mismanaged.
 
Aint that the Dickens...we have some similar issues down here (though I feel more confident in knowing what to cut here). No one wants to mess with the safety nets even though some of them can be inefficient or mismanaged.
Mismanagement is often "set in " for many programs of all sorts in Government By that I meant the "rules" are all set by politicians where every district needs a cookie that meets the special needs of their constituency .Try explaining the old Tobacco allotment process and related payments through the eyes of efficiency.
But I read today where some former VP at Google says he thinks half of their employees add no value-so I guess it is universal in huge comapanies/govts
 
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