Mack Brown (not) gone (yet)

[haroldminer]

B

The thing is there shouldn't be that kind of limitations on the football program with the resources and name recognition that UNC has. Mack just had two back to back generational talents at QB that were wasted because they didn't and still don't have a defense. UNC had the program in the right direction with Butch Davis and then they made him the scapegoat and got rid of him instead of standing up to the NCAA. It's been a struggle since finding the right leadership for the program.

Butch stunk. There’s a reason you don’t here about him anymore.

 

[Enigma94]

I'm guessing you have not frequented the Tar Pit over the past 10 years or so...

I had an IC membership for over 20 years. I don’t think that’s an accurate representation of the vast majority of posters there. Sure there are some idiots but very few see UNC as a perennial top ten team. That’s certainly not a fair characterization of those participating on this thread who are fed up with Mack.

 

[mpaer]

As someone who has gone to Wallace Wade since he was a whipper, you’re correct. The game day experience is actually a game day experience now. The concourse used to resemble a barren county fair. The pee troughs were awful and the football was worse. Duke neglected football for a long time… the last several years have been more than I could have ever asked for twenty years ago.

I don't know their ticket package prices today-but for a long time the last twenty years they got a whole new set of local fans-not grads necessarily-loving Duke Football You could get like a family in for 50 bucks or something

 

[Duke Mu]

I strongly encourage UNC to retain the services of Mack Brown as the UNC head football coach for many years to come.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

I don’t think expecting double digit wins and and top 10 finishes every year is reasonable for almost any program and don’t think that’s what anyone here expects. I think it is reasonable to expect us to do better than we have done over the course of the past 25+ years. I think it is reasonable to expect that for roughly every 5 seasons, we have at least one season with double digit wins and are at least in the conversation of being a team that is deserving of a top 10 ranking at the end of the season. And that for at about 3 out of every 5 seasons we have a top-25 finish, or are at least getting top 25 votes at the end of the season. And that those other 2 out of 5 years, we still finish above .500. Even if that is not what UNC football has been, it is reasonable to expect it to become as such. And there have been times where it has been like that.

I agree that it's not realistic to expect a Top 10 finish every year. All I would like to see again before I pass from this earthly realm is a UNC defense that is actually capable of stopping the other team on a fairly regular basis. I haven't seen a decent UNC defense since Butch Davis was here, and we haven't had a great defense since Mack Brown 1.0 left in 1997. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's too much to ask a well-paid UNC head football coach to put together a competent defense most years instead of the almost comically bad defenses that we've usually been treated to for the past fifteen or so years. For far too long opposing offenses have lit us up like a pinball machine, and if you have a QB or offense that is struggling the best way to fix it is to have a game scheduled against us.

 

[Peppers49]

It's not the first time we allowed a team to score 70 points. ECU beat us 70-41 in 2014, but that's not the point.

My point is that we have a 100 year history of being a 7-5 football program. Expecting double digit wins and a top 10 finish every year is failing to recognize the limitations of our program as evidenced by 100 years of data.

It’s simply not accurate to say that even a remotely significant number of our fans expect to win double digit games and be a top 10 team every year. That’s just arguing in bad faith.

 

[heelinhell]

B

Butch stunk. There’s a reason you don’t here about him anymore.

Butch Davis :

4-8 in 2007
8-5 in 2008
8-5 in 2009
8-5 in 2010

28-23 ( excluding the games we had to forfeit )



If you want to go nostalgic for successful coaches go :

DickCrum

5-6 in 1978
8-3-1 in 1979
11-1 in 1980 ( ACC champs )
10-2 in 1981
8-4 in 1982
8-4 in 1983
5-5-1 in 1984
5-6 in 1985
7-4-1 in 1986
5-6 in 1987

72-41-2

Mack Brown 1.0

1-10 in 1988
1-10 in 1989
6-4-1 in 1990
7-4 in 1991
9-3 in 1992
10-3 in 1993
8-4 in 1994
7-5- in 1995
10-2 in 1996
11-1 in 1997

70-46-1

We are a 7-5 program...I suggest we need to focus on beating the neighborhood, having a winning season, and going to a minor bowl

 

[dukeman92]

I don't know their ticket package prices today-but for a long time the last twenty years they got a whole new set of local fans-not grads necessarily-loving Duke Football You could get like a family in for 50 bucks or something

I remember when old men would stand in front of the Wade and give their tickets away… those days are long gone.

 

[heelinhell]

I haven't been on the Clemson, F$U, Georgia, Texas, Notre Dame, Michigan or Ohio State basketball message boards, but are they complaining about why their basketball program is sucking ?

 

[CFordUNC]

People think Butch “stunk” for two reasons: 1. because our offense was so pedestrian for almost his entire tenure and 2. because we lost four straight to NC State. And to be clear, 3 of those 4 losses were bad losses. But we actually had a program that played sound, tough, physical, fundamental football, especially on defense. We lost games, yes, but we didn’t lose them because we looked and played like the Bad New Bears or the Washington Generals, like every single one of our losses these days.

Butch was a better talent identifier and talent developer than any coach UNC has ever had in football, including Mack 1.0. Butch’s primary problems were a stubborn adherence to an outdated offensive philosophy, and not understanding or caring to understand the significance of the N.C. State rivalry. Had the NCAA stuff not happened, his recruiting would have continued going gangbusters- Keith Marshall and Todd Gurley are both Tar Heels-, and we’d have continued amassing unbelievable amounts of future NFL talent. Look at the offensive line that Butch left Larry Fedora in 2012- look at how many of those guys played on Sundays. The 2011 and 2012 offenses would have, IMO, looked completely different than the 2007-2009 ones that people remember with such disdain. Hell, in 2010 when Butch was forced out of necessity to change his offensive philosophy, TJ Yates had TWO 400-yard passing games in an era where that wasn’t all that common in college football like it is now.

Injuries to TJ Yates and Brandon Tate in 2008 kept that from being a 10-win season (two years removed from the 3-9 that got Bunting fired). Injuries to the entire offensive line for the first half of 2009 kept that one from being a 10-win season, too. Yeah, yeah, I know (and I agree) that if if’s and but’s were candy and nuts…

My point is that Butch Davis was a whole hell of a lot better than most of our football fans seem to remember here with 14 years of hindsight, and by the time he was fired, we were well on our way to building a legitimate ACC and possible national title contender. Butch was the one time and one time only where UNC institutionally committed to football, and it’s a shame that they were so quick to throw up the white flag and unconditionally surrender at the very first sign of the NCAA asking questions, instead of doubling down and protecting the program like literally every other serious football school would have done.

 

[Peppers49]

I don’t think expecting double digit wins and and top 10 finishes every year is reasonable for almost any program and don’t think that’s what anyone here expects. I think it is reasonable to expect us to do better than we have done over the course of the past 25+ years. I think it is reasonable to expect that for roughly every 5 seasons, we have at least one season with double digit wins and are at least in the conversation of being a team that is deserving of a top 10 ranking at the end of the season. And that for at about 3 out of every 5 seasons we have a top-25 finish, or are at least getting top 25 votes at the end of the season. And that those other 2 out of 5 years, we still finish above .500. Even if that is not what UNC football has been, it is reasonable to expect it to become as such. And there have been times where it has been like that.

This is well said and pretty much aligns with my expectations for the program too. The “sleeping giant” thing is a meme at this point, but I do think UNC is a sneaky good job and that the parameters you laid out are well within the realm of possibility with a good coach.

The kicker is that I don’t really trust the people that make decisions for our athletic department to get a hire like that right.

 

[HandsonFire]

Butch Davis :

4-8 in 2007
8-5 in 2008
8-5 in 2009
8-5 in 2010

28-23 ( excluding the games we had to forfeit )



If you want to go nostalgic for successful coaches go :

DickCrum

5-6 in 1978
8-3-1 in 1979
11-1 in 1980 ( ACC champs )
10-2 in 1981
8-4 in 1982
8-4 in 1983
5-5-1 in 1984
5-6 in 1985
7-4-1 in 1986
5-6 in 1987

72-41-2

Mack Brown 1.0

1-10 in 1988
1-10 in 1989
6-4-1 in 1990
7-4 in 1991
9-3 in 1992
10-3 in 1993
8-4 in 1994
7-5- in 1995
10-2 in 1996
11-1 in 1997

70-46-1

We are a 7-5 program...I suggest we need to focus on beating the neighborhood, having a winning season, and going to a minor bowl

Sounds like giving up to me. Acceptance of mediocrity. It may never change but it sure as well won’t if you don’t try.

 

[mpaer]

Butch was the one time and one time only where UNC institutionally committed to football,

I will buy that. And the 7 years of hell we went through after Marvin's tweet were a reasonable reason why a lot of folks didn't want to try that again. And " Ironically " (Butchs firing ) was why a lot of Big time football lovers/donors disengaged.
It was a perfect storm of bad stuff for Football .

 

[SnoopRob]

Once again, how do you know this is how it went down?

Because he admitted it. From the ESPN article you posted...

Brown, a College Football Hall of Famer, said he told the players that it was his fault and that he would step away if he couldn't get things fixed. The 70 points were the most ever given up by the Tar Heels, who fell to 3-1.

You only mention "stepping away" for 2 reasons...

1) To do it.

2) To get folks to tell you not to.

So unless he's retiring immediately, the only reason he would bring up "stepping away" is so that everyone in that locker room would tell him not to.

It would have been appropriate for him to have discussed stepping away with Bubba, based on the outcome of the game, as Bubba is his boss. But you don't discuss it with the staff and players you're supposed to be leading unless there are rumors (and then you only deny them) or you're actually going. And there hadn't been enough time for rumors to develop directly after the game.

Anything else is a complete failure of leadership.

 

[CFordUNC]

Butch was the one time and one time only where UNC institutionally committed to football,

I will buy that. And the 7 years of hell we went through after Marvin's tweet were a reasonable reason why a lot of folks didn't want to try that again. And " Ironically " (Butchs firing ) was why a lot of Big time football lovers/donors disengaged.
It was a perfect storm of bad stuff for Football .

Totally agree with everything you said.

 

[Calheel]

Good luck with that. That "poster" is a bot.

I think he/she/it has finally accepted that Biden will drop out of the race.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Because he admitted it. From the ESPN article you posted...

Brown, a College Football Hall of Famer, said he told the players that it was his fault and that he would step away if he couldn't get things fixed. The 70 points were the most ever given up by the Tar Heels, who fell to 3-1.

You only mention "stepping away" for 2 reasons...

1) To do it.

2) To get folks to tell you not to.

So unless he's retiring immediately, the only reason he would bring up "stepping away" is so that everyone in that locker room would tell him not to.

It would have been appropriate for him to have discussed stepping away with Bubba, based on the outcome of the game, as Bubba is his boss. But you don't discuss it with the staff and players you're supposed to be leading unless there are rumors (and then you only deny them) or you're actually going. And there hadn't been enough time for rumors to develop directly after the game.

Anything else is a complete failure of leadership.

He said that he would move aside and let someone else give it a shot if he can't get the job done. How do you get that he's putting it on the players from those words?

Complete failure of leadership is a different matter/question.

 

[IH8dook]

I don't know their ticket package prices today-but for a long time the last twenty years they got a whole new set of local fans-not grads necessarily-loving Duke Football You could get like a family in for 50 bucks or something

At one time if you bought a BoJangles Tailgate Special they’ed give you 4 dook tickets.
(..not really..but almost)

 

[Peppers49]

Sounds like giving up to me. Acceptance of mediocrity. It may never change but it sure as well won’t if you don’t try.

It’s such a crazy mentality to me.

“Well we’ve had a few other coaches that have sucked and let mediocre teams hang 70 on us at home, the precedent is set, so from now on it’s okay when it happens”.

 

[heelinhell]

Sounds like giving up to me. Acceptance of mediocrity. It may never change but it sure as well won’t if you don’t try.

We have been mediocre for 100 years. We have had 34 coaches during that time.

Are you suggesting we have not tried over the last 100 years ?

Do you think that after 100 years we will suddenly find the magical solution that will propel us beyond mediocrity ?

If so, what is that is magical solution ?