March Madness - Sweet 16

[superrific]

I agree. I remember back when Rick Barnes was at Clemson and the fans would get so upset when Tom Wideman, Harold Jamison, Iker Iturbe, etc. would get called for so many fouls. If I remember, there was one game against Carolina where Clemson had to end the game with four players. It's because those guys played like linebackers. I saw a lot of that from TCU Saturday. Did not watch Utah State but would not surprise me at all if it was the same thing.

Yes, there was. And it wasn't just any UNC team either. It was Stack and Sheed UNC. No way those big slow dudes could possibly keep up, so they fouled.

And Rick Barnes whined to the media about the foul disparity and it worked.

It's one of the reasons that college ball got so violently physical. Basically, certain coaches bluffed the refs: you can't foul out the whole team. And the refs caved. Thus was born the foul every play strategy.

 

[lawtig02]

Yes, there was. And it wasn't just any UNC team either. It was Stack and Sheed UNC. No way those big slow dudes could possibly keep up, so they fouled.

And Rick Barnes whined to the media about the foul disparity and it worked.

It's one of the reasons that college ball got so violently physical. Basically, certain coaches bluffed the refs: you can't foul out the whole team. And the refs caved. Thus was born the foul every play strategy.

Most of the time, college basketball innovates before the NBA. But I've viewed that strategy as originating in the NBA with the Bad Boy Pistons of the late '80s under Chuck Daly, and then moving to college ball with Tarkanian at UNLV. But it really caught fire in the late '90s, which is the time I think that game happened. And then started to fade a little bit after the Malice at the Palace. But you still see it with a lot of teams, especially in the SEC and Big 12. Houston has almost perfected it.

 

[superrific]

Most of the time, college basketball innovates before the NBA. But I've seen that strategy as originating in the NBA with the Bad Boy Pistons of the late '80s under Chuck Daly, and then moving to college ball with Tarkanian at UNLV. But it really caught fire in the late '90s, which is the time I think that game happened. And then started to fade a little bit after the Malice at the Palace. But you still see it with a lot of teams, especially in the SEC and Big 12. Houston has almost perfected it.

They were parallel developments. The extreme athletic disparities between, say, Sheed and Tom Wideman do not exist in the NBA, so the need for excessive fouling just to avoid getting posterized isn't there as much.

The physical play in the NBA was a response to the no-zone rules. Basically, nobody could guard MJ. He was the first player in NBA history to be essentially unguardable from the perimeter, in my view. The previous unguardable players were big men like Wilt and Kareem -- meaning that you couldn't guard them but you could help down and double on them to some degree. The no-zone defense concept didn't break. But you can't just run a double team at MJ when he's 19 feet away.

So the solution was to play "physical." And that's why the refs started to let it go to some extent. It was to prevent MJ from making a mockery of defense.

These days, the pendulum has swung all the way around. Not only are defenses not allowed to play physical, but offensive players are. There seems to be a weird informal rule in the league that goes something like, "a player performing a Euro step cannot be called for a foul even if he plows right into his defender and elbows him in the fame."

 

[lawtig02]

They were parallel developments. The extreme athletic disparities between, say, Sheed and Tom Wideman do not exist in the NBA, so the need for excessive fouling just to avoid getting posterized isn't there as much.

The physical play in the NBA was a response to the no-zone rules. Basically, nobody could guard MJ. He was the first player in NBA history to be essentially unguardable from the perimeter, in my view. The previous unguardable players were big men like Wilt and Kareem -- meaning that you couldn't guard them but you could help down and double on them to some degree. The no-zone defense concept didn't break. But you can't just run a double team at MJ when he's 19 feet away.

So the solution was to play "physical." And that's why the refs started to let it go to some extent. It was to prevent MJ from making a mockery of defense.

These days, the pendulum has swung all the way around. Not only are defenses not allowed to play physical, but offensive players are. There seems to be a weird informal rule in the league that goes something like, "a player performing a Euro step cannot be called for a foul even if he plows right into his defender and elbows him in the fame."

Can’t disagree with that. I happen to love the ad-offense mindset of the NBA, as long as it’s called evenly. Those guys are the best athletes in the world in my opinion, and it’s amazing to watch what they can do when they’re not getting pulverized by Bill Laimbeer.

 

[superrific]

Can’t disagree with that. I happen to love the ad-offense mindset of the NBA, as long as it’s called evenly. Those guys are the best athletes in the world in my opinion, and it’s amazing to watch what they can do when they’re not getting pulverized by Bill Laimbeer.

I don't like it. It's gone way too far. If they are the best athletes in the world, then why not make them use the athleticism to score instead of pushing off or smashing into the defender.

Generally I think it's more fun to watch a player have to overcome good defense in order to score. If the defense can't be good because the offense can just push off or hook or charge, then it feels cheap. It starts to raise questions like, "is SGA really that good? Wouldn't Lebron have scored 50 a game in his prime under these rules?

 

[lawtig02]

I don't like it. It's gone way too far. If they are the best athletes in the world, then why not make them use the athleticism to score instead of pushing off or smashing into the defender.

Generally I think it's more fun to watch a player have to overcome good defense in order to score. If the defense can't be good because the offense can just push off or hook or charge, then it feels cheap. It starts to raise questions like, "is SGA really that good? Wouldn't Lebron have scored 50 a game in his prime under these rules?

I get that, and we should probably take this to the NBA thread. I'm not a big fan of comparing stats over time. Wilt would not have scored 100 in this NBA. Bam would not have scored 83 in the early '90s. I just like to watch people like Wemby and Durant and Anthony Edwards and (more locally) Brandon Miller and think, "The human body should not be able to do that."

 

[aGDevil2k]

I agree. I remember back when Rick Barnes was at Clemson and the fans would get so upset when Tom Wideman, Harold Jamison, Iker Iturbe, etc. would get called for so many fouls. If I remember, there was one game against Carolina where Clemson had to end the game with four players. It's because those guys played like linebackers. I saw a lot of that from TCU Saturday. Did not watch Utah State but would not surprise me at all if it was the same thing.

Even as a Duke fan, the 4 player game was HILARIOUS

 

[Centerpiece]

I’m hoping for chalk from here on out… aside from the Johnnies over dookies. And perhaps Sparty over UCONN. I could live with that 3 over a 2.
But other than that I want the other 1’s and 2’s to advance on as long as d00k is still alive.
Can’t have 9 seed Iowa or an 11 seed Tejas make it any further.
Florida is gone, so we need the other heavy weights to stay in it.
Houston , Zona, Iowa St. Michigan… although I think a 3 seed Illinois can get it done too if it comes down to it.

 

[SmilingJack]

Virginia Women in overtime with Iowa!?! Couldn’t find a thead on women’s ball?