Masculinity

S

superrific

Master of the ZZLverse
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Lots of articles recently about a "crisis in masculinity." Of course, we've been reading articles like that for at least two decades.

It's hard for me to identify, though, because I've never, ever had any insecurity about masculinity. It wasn't because I was a big stud or anything like that. Quite the opposite. I was a skinny nerdish kid (nerd more by birth than by choice, but still). I became less nerdy in adulthood. I dated -- but not super successfully. Certainly never had to shoo away the females. But I've never been jacked. After I started lifting regularly, I finally got to "freshman John Henson." Well, maybe sophomore John Henson but you get the idea.

I simply didn't care. Why would it matter whether I was "manly"? When I was younger, I viewed obsession with manliness as a form of weakness. I've since softened my stance and tried to be less judgmental, but I still don't really get it.

What are other posters' experiences with it? Did anyone struggle with masculinity? How was it resolved (if it was)? Is it (or was it) an important value to you? Do you make purchasing decisions based on whether a product is too feminine? In college, I preferred Zima to beer. I don't like beer and never will. I was mocked because Zima was for girls, supposedly. I was like, how stupid is that? I like the taste of this and it gets me buzzed just as well.
 
Kids showed me a 1987 movie they got from their mother over the Holidays I was 5'10 , 135lbs
I was surprised I looked okay. Not as "skinny" as I felt back then
Now that I am in my 70's I am glad I am thin. But the extra 19 lbs I have gathered are certainly not muscle lol
 
Never thought much about it. I was 6-1 140 when I got to UNC. I was 6-1 200 when I left. I was glad for the extra pounds as I gained 75 yards off the tee.
 
I was 5' 11" and 175 lbs in college which had nothing to do with masculinity back in my day. In my day there was no masculinity crisis.

I have some sympathy for young male kids today who worry about their masculinity . Is it because young women are becoming a threatening force of nature ?
 
I never had any concern about masculinity but I was more sensitive as a young child than most boys my age. I remember crying at home because kids made fun of me at school and my parents were sympathetic but adamant that I was too sensitive for my own good. Life beat that out of me though so now I am kind of dead inside. (I say that half jokingly.)

I did have self esteem issues partly because my brother was the one the girls always liked, was a good athlete, and smart. Plus he never had health issues and I was in and out of hospitals as a child. I imagine those dynamics play out in a good percentage of families.

That said, my brother remained popular in high school but not as much as junior high. He kind of had a look that peaked in 9th or 10th grade. Some people would tell me I was better looking as an adult but I never believed them. If I would describe my brother he was kind of like Zach from Saved by the Bell. Cute kid but high schools the girls were looking more for a Slater.

But I knew I naturally liked girls and like boy things, to some extent at least. I would pretend to be the A team or play war in my grandparents pasture just like the cousins. I enjoyed a good game of tackle football in their front yard. Loved to climb the granite hills near my home town. So masculinity was not an issue except that taking an interest in more activities that girls like would have probably benefited me.

But I also wasn’t in any way a macho type guy.

Edit: My brother was a good athlete not food athlete. Although it would be pretty cool if he had been a big time eating competitor.
 
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Guess my Dad was my role model for masculinity He was relatively mild mannered and kind. He was certainly a lot more handy than I ever was ,house projects cars etc.
He also served in live frontline battles. I think that kind of took any “Macho man” out of him. As in oh yea that guy is real tough- bet he never fucking took incoming mortar rounds…
 
I guess this depends on how one defines masculinity.

I never really questioned my masculinity, though I did greatly question my looks, since I couldn't ever get a date or a girlfriend.

As for all the males stuff, I was not athletic and average strength. But I could rebuild an engine and transmission, plumb and wire a sump pump, and install an HVAC system while still in high school. I was average intelligence and went to a shitty high school where I wasn't really challenged or developed. This made college a struggle. I was 6'1" 200lbs when I graduated high school.

I developed a ton on insecurities in high school. I've outgrown most but some still linger 40 years later.
 
UNCatTech said:
I never really questioned my masculinity, though I did greatly question my looks, since I couldn't ever get a date or a girlfriend.
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I think this is what is missed with the young men of today. Young men being lonely is not a new phenomenon. Those things they are feeling is exactly what any shy boy or young man felt. With respects to attention from the opposite sex, being a young man is difficult if you aren't the type to go around chatting up women you don't know. And the idea that it is somewhat socially unacceptable to hit on women isn't new either. We've all been in rooms with a bunch of women who complained about getting hit on all the time. It is hard for young men to understand what that really means. I've seen a lot of young men internalize this to mean that women hate mean asking them out unless the man is hot and then they like it. I don't think that that is true, but it is something repeated over and over by young men.

I do think online dating has made everything worse for young men who aren't the top 5-10%, and that is almost to the point where it is causing increasing social upheaval. I think that played a role in why young men are turning to extremism. But the general "problem" is not new.
 
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UNCatTech said:
I guess this depends on how one defines masculinity.
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Yea
Defining Masculinity gets into a lot of weird "our society" gender role stuff
A lot of which is horsepucky
In my day Dad's career was paramount But my mom and my best friend's mom both sold Real estate and both out performed Hubby (financially ) in a given year
And everyone "knew" without Mom the family would be a chaotic nightmare
Early in my work life I remember coming back to the Office with my boss-we had met with some big dog Hospital administrators (Duke)
John says to me "watch out for your career Mpaer-these guys love their family and love their career-but they love their Career first-not good "
 
And at the expense of repeating incel talking points, I am going to try to explain what I mean by increasing social problems. Before I do, I want to be clear that I am in no way blaming women for any of this.

As far as I can tell, the 80/20 study from Tinder is real and I believe this is backed up by less hook-up prone sites like Bumble. Obviously these studies are leaked as dating sites do not want that information to get out to the public.

What that says is that 80% of women swipe right on only 20% of men. It is important to identify whether these are the same 20% of men. Odds are it is not but odds are there is a strong overlap there.

If you accept these studies as being true, that really has the potential to cause serious social upheaval because it results in 80% of men feeling insignificant and not valued. The other side is that 20% men are incentivized to sleep around and discard women. Men will sleep with women that they would not date. That results in women being angry and distrustful of men because the swiping behavior unwittingly leads them to men who have no incentive to behave. And while it is true that there are a lot of pigs sending dick picks to women, the smart pigs are pretending to be normal. (The ones sending dick picks are reprehensible but at least they are honest.)

None of that applies to our generations, but is a growing issue among 20-somethings. It is an issue that society is going to have to get a handle on. This isn't about blame. But we are seeing young men being pushed to the far right. Angry people can do outright horrible things. If they have a politician who speaks to their anger things will get ugly quickly.

I think the solution is to go back to meeting people in real life. It is hard, especially for shy men, but it is the only way forward. We need to have a push to dump dating apps and video games and get young men out into the real world.
 
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ChapelHillSooner said:
And at the expense of repeating incel talking points, I am going to try to explain what I mean by increasing social problems. Before I do, I want to be clear that I am in no way blaming women for any of this.

As far as I can tell, the 80/20 study from Tinder is real and I believe this is backed up by less hook-up prone sites like Bumble. Obviously these studies are leaked as dating sites do not want that information to get out to the public.

What that says is that 80% of women swipe right on only 20% of men. It is important to identify whether these are the same 20% of men. Odds are it is not but odds are there is a strong overlap there.

If you accept these studies as being true, that really has the potential to cause serious social upheaval because it results in 80% of men feeling insignificant and not valued. The other side is that 20% men are incentivized to sleep around and discard women. Men will sleep with women that they would not date. That results in women being angry and distrustful of men because the swiping behavior unwittingly leads them to men who have no incentive to behave. And while it is true that there are a lot of pigs sending dick picks to women, the smart pigs are pretending to be normal. (The ones sending dick picks are reprehensible but at least they are honest.)

None of that applies to our generations, but is a growing issue among 20-somethings. It is an issue that society is going to have to get a handle on. This isn't about blame. But we are seeing young men being pushed to the far right. Angry people can do outright horrible things. If they have a politician who speaks to their anger things will get ugly quickly.

I think the solution is to go back to meeting people in real life. It is hard, especially for shy men, but it is the only way forward. We need to have a push to dump dating apps and video games and get young men out into the real world.
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No boy needs to be playing on a phone, a tablet, a computer, or a gaming platform primarily. They need to be outside breaking: stuff, arms, rules, ankles, etc. You are also correct that boys suffer disproportionately from dating apps because it is driving them to all sorts of body issues that they are even less equipped to deal with than girls are. Parents will helicopter a boy from playing football because he might hurt himself but let him destroy his entire psyche online. It is insanity.
 
wmheel1287 said:
No boy needs to be playing on a phone, a tablet, a computer, or a gaming platform primarily. They need to be outside breaking: stuff, arms, rules, ankles, etc. You are also correct that boys suffer disproportionately from dating apps because it is driving them to all sorts of body issues that they are even less equipped to deal with than girls are. Parents will helicopter a boy from playing football because he might hurt himself but let him destroy his entire psyche online. It is insanity.
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Good points.

Also I was going to delete my post as I was afraid of the responses it might get but now that you quoted it I won't. haha
 
I don't know what Super wanted in responses
But I have 4 grandsons age 2-12 and this is informative-scary-informative
 
I'd venture to guess that all of the posters responding with "I never had an issue with masculinity" all grew up long before the current "All masculinity is toxic masculinity" craze started. That includes me.

Gavin Newsom had an entire show about this:

 
ZenMode said:
I'd venture to guess that all of the posters responding with "I never had an issue with masculinity" all grew up long before the current "All masculinity is toxic masculinity" craze started. That includes me.

Gavin Newsom had an entire show about this:

Click to expand...

Where is this craze? I've been around and not noticed such a thing. I have certainly noticed a pushback on the classic sort of macho man persona, but not some overzealous insistence on no masculinity.
 
Women have their world
And men, we have ours
We're into sports
And they're into flowers
Oh, women are talking
We do not understand
They speak in a language
We do not comprehend
No one knows how it started
And God knows how it'll end
The fightin' continues
Women versus men




 
wmheel1287 said:
Where is this craze? I've been around and not noticed such a thing. I have certainly noticed a pushback on the classic sort of macho man persona, but not some overzealous insistence on no masculinity.
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Not sure what to say. There's a lot of info out there and has been for a few years. I've seen links to increased suicide rates among young men.

Edit: like anything else in today's media environment, I'm sure there is some exaggeration regarding the issue, but it has definitely been covered.
 
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