I’m not talking about the mall. I’m talking about an intruder or several intruders breaking into your house. There is no “don’t play the game” option. You’re in the game at that moment and can’t get out of it. Do you want a helmet and pads or not?
Mass Shooting & Gun Violence | LDS Church Attacked
- Thread starter nycfan
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Out of curiosity then...how would you feel about outlawing large capacity or swappable magazines outside of one's private property and/or home?
I’m fine with that, provided there are carve-outs for going to and from a range or something like that.
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So I would like to see the numbers on how many folks actively protect their home from invaders with guns
versus
The number of suicides and shooting deaths of family members at Homes with guns
It is from a societal view a real net negative to have guns in Homes -like maybe 100 or 1000 to 1, maybe 10,000-1?
superrific
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I'd prefer a shotgun. Or at least that's what I've read is the best home defense weapon.
But anyway, what you're talking about is vanishingly rare. There are maybe 50K defensive gun uses annually in America. That's all DGUs in all settings. A percentage of those occur in the home environment. And that's all defensive gun usage -- that is, defense of property and personal, and it's just a total count without regard to whether the attacker has a gun. So somebody thinks you're not home, sneaks into your home, and you brandish a gun and he runs away. That's a DGU but the magazine size made no difference at all since the attacker was not armed.
Keep in mind that there are about 10 gun deaths every year from armed home intrusion. That's right, 10. I don't know about injury rates. So even if we assume that 75% of households are armed and that self-defense is effective, that means that there are maybe 30 defensive gun uses that require a large mag. Per year.
30.
The problem is that defensive gun use (DGU) statistics vary widely based on the source, so those statistics would be hard to come by.
superrific
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As I just posted, there are about 10 homicides a year from armed home invasions, and the number of DGUs for armed intrusion is not going to be much bigger. 100 tops, I would imagine.
superrific
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They vary by the degree of propaganda.
Your statistics are horribly innaccurate. Earlier in this thread I was able to find dozens of instances of home invaders being shot or shooting the residents of a home in a single week's timespan. You might be confusing the United States with Luxembourg. It happens, I know.
Anyways, here's the latest update of imaginary people defending themselves from imaginary intruders. Fake news, right?
Kanawha deputies say homeowner fatally shot intruder - WV MetroNews
No charges have been filed.
wvmetronews.com
Jefferson County homeowner shoots intruder during attempted break-in, sheriff’s office says
The incident unfolded just before 5 a.m. Monday, after dispatch received a call from a Jefferson County home near the Leon County line, according to the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office.
Woman fatally shoots home invader in Joliet, Illinois, police say
Joliet police said the woman shot the suspect in the head after he forced his way into her home Friday night.
www.cbsnews.com
Revealed: Mom who hid her baby in a closet and shot a burglar dead
The young mom who hid her baby in a closet before shooting dead a home intruder has been identified by the Daily Mail, who also spoke to her famous boyfriend.
Armed home intruder killed after fatally stabbing Rockingham County woman
Authorities are investigating a home invasion that happened in Rockingham County on Sunday night, resulting in the death of a Rockingham County woman and the intruder.
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www.fox13memphis.com
Kentucky child shot, killed alleged armed home invaders in self-defense, police say
A child in Manchester, Kentucky shot and killed two alleged home invaders who were trying to steal firearms from a safe.
www.usatoday.com
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www.wesh.com
Fort Worth homeowner shoots alleged robber in home invasion
A Fort Worth homeowner shot an alleged robber during a home invasion early Friday. One suspect is in critical condition and two others, armed and masked, are at large.
Intruder killed while trying to invade Pontotoc County home
After already entering a home, an intruder was shot and killed by a homeowner in Byng.
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www.wyff4.com
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superrific
Master of the ZZLverse
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Moore flubs stats on gun deaths during home invasions
Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore’s response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas was to propose rewriting the Second Ame
www.politifact.com
"Every year, there are about 100 burglary homicides in the U.S. If half of these were gun homicides, he would be in the right ballpark," University of Chicago Crime Lab co-director Harold Pollack said. "So the statistic isn’t wildly off base, but I haven’t seen a rigorous analysis. There’s no question that lethal home invasions are terrifying but rare events."
When we checked 2015 FBI figures, for example, there were 13,455 reported homicides, and 102 of those happened during burglaries. That’s 0.76 percent of all homicides — but there was no mention of the term home invasion, or the weapon used to commit the homicide.
I found other sources that put the number closer to 10, but let's say I'm off by an order of magnitude. Maybe it's actually 100. It doesn't really change the point.
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Your statistics are horribly innaccurate. Earlier in this thread I was able to find dozens of instances of home invaders being shot or shooting the residents of a home in a single week's timespan. You might be confusing the United States with Luxembourg. It happens, I know.
Anyways, here's the latest update of imaginary people defending themselves from imaginary intruders. Fake news, right?
Kanawha deputies say homeowner fatally shot intruder - WV MetroNews
No charges have been filed.
Jefferson County homeowner shoots intruder during attempted break-in, sheriff’s office says
The incident unfolded just before 5 a.m. Monday, after dispatch received a call from a Jefferson County home near the Leon County line, according to the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office.www.wctv.tv
Woman fatally shoots home invader in Joliet, Illinois, police say
Joliet police said the woman shot the suspect in the head after he forced his way into her home Friday night.
Revealed: Mom who hid her baby in a closet and shot a burglar dead
The young mom who hid her baby in a closet before shooting dead a home intruder has been identified by the Daily Mail, who also spoke to her famous boyfriend.www.dailymail.co.uk
Armed home intruder killed after fatally stabbing Rockingham County woman
Authorities are investigating a home invasion that happened in Rockingham County on Sunday night, resulting in the death of a Rockingham County woman and the intruder.www.whsv.com
Loading…
www.fox13memphis.com
Kentucky child shot, killed alleged armed home invaders in self-defense, police say
A child in Manchester, Kentucky shot and killed two alleged home invaders who were trying to steal firearms from a safe.
Loading…
www.wesh.com
Fort Worth homeowner shoots alleged robber in home invasion
A Fort Worth homeowner shot an alleged robber during a home invasion early Friday. One suspect is in critical condition and two others, armed and masked, are at large.www.fox4news.com
Intruder killed while trying to invade Pontotoc County home
After already entering a home, an intruder was shot and killed by a homeowner in Byng.www.kxii.com
Loading…
www.wyff4.com
- Data from 2019 indicates that 315 perpetrators were shot in defensive gun use incidents, with about half of them dying. Based on news reports, it's estimated that fewer than 600 potential perpetrators were killed in defensive gun use incidents that year. However, these numbers are not specific to homeowners defending against home invasions or burglaries and include other forms of self-defense as well.
- For context, in 2023, there were 8,351 homicides in US households, with approximately 55% involving firearms.
Moore flubs stats on gun deaths during home invasions
Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore’s response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas was to propose rewriting the Second Ame
www.politifact.com
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- 3,107
Nationally, from 2016 to 2021, there were more than 21,000 firearm deaths among children 10 to 19 years old, of which 36 percent were suicides. In 19 states, suicide accounted for more than half of firearm deaths in this age group. Among young adults 20 to 24 years old, there were more than 30,000 deaths in this same time period, of which 38 percent were suicides. In 24 states, suicide accounted for more than half of firearm deaths among young adults ages 20 to 24.
Moore flubs stats on gun deaths during home invasions
Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore’s response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas was to propose rewriting the Second Ame
"Every year, there are about 100 burglary homicides in the U.S. If half of these were gun homicides, he would be in the right ballpark," University of Chicago Crime Lab co-director Harold Pollack said. "So the statistic isn’t wildly off base, but I haven’t seen a rigorous analysis. There’s no question that lethal home invasions are terrifying but rare events."
When we checked 2015 FBI figures, for example, there were 13,455 reported homicides, and 102 of those happened during burglaries. That’s 0.76 percent of all homicides — but there was no mention of the term home invasion, or the weapon used to commit the homicide.
I found other sources that put the number closer to 10, but let's say I'm off by an order of magnitude. Maybe it's actually 100. It doesn't really change the point.
It does change the point, as your own source states that those statistics are not accurately tracked by any federal agencies and rated Moore's claim "mostly false." Additionally, by only including known "burglaries", incidents where people are targeted and nothing is stolen (think: a wife with a restraining order who is murdered by her ex husband) are left out. Finally, the fact that so many homeowners are legally armed and able to defend themselves is also a likely factor.
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So there are far more instances of homeowners legally firing their weapons in self defense than there are active shooter events in the United States. Seems like the stats support people being able to lawfully defend themselves.
- Data from 2019 indicates that 315 perpetrators were shot in defensive gun use incidents, with about half of them dying. Based on news reports, it's estimated that fewer than 600 potential perpetrators were killed in defensive gun use incidents that year. However, these numbers are not specific to homeowners defending against home invasions or burglaries and include other forms of self-defense as well.
- For context, in 2023, there were 8,351 homicides in US households, with approximately 55% involving firearms.
Moore flubs stats on gun deaths during home invasions
Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore’s response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas was to propose rewriting the Second Ame
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But far far more deaths by guns in suicides , family drunk fights etc
Having guns around sucks
superrific
Master of the ZZLverse
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Let's shift the conversation a bit, leaving aside for a minute your other expressed views on self-defense. Let's talk about sample selection bias:
1. My wife is a child psychiatrist. She treats kids with autism a lot. Sometimes one of my kids behaves in ways that disturb me, but my wife tells me, "that's fairly common behavior." But that's "common among the kids who are seeing psychiatrists" which is not at all the same as common among kids in general. What she means is, "that's common enough in the autistic population and I see it enough times to know that it's not concerning in itself," and I know that. She doesn't have to say that whole mouthful every time. But if you were to hear her, you might take the wrong conclusion away. And in addition, sometimes she fools herself: after a long day, she can be drained and maybe she says, "that's common" when she means "I see it frequently."
2. I have never witnessed a murder or been on a crime scene when a murder is created. So my baseline experience in the world is "no homicides." Obviously I know they exist; but I'm naturally conditioned to see them as very rare. Which they are, depending on what is meant by "very." But "very" is the issue under dispute, right? So my experience biases me toward believing undercounts.
3. You're an emergency responder, both fire and EMT, IIRC. Well, nobody calls the EMT when they have an argument and settle the matter peacefully. Nor is EMT called if there's a burglary where the intruder takes a few things and leaves. You get called when there is blood on the floor. So naturally you are experientially conditioned in a different way than me, perhaps almost opposite. So you are prone to believing overcounts.
The way to address sample selection biases is to 1) be aware of them; and 2) try to correct for them. This is why I always read primary sources rather than rely on news reports, where possible. The primary source presents the information raw, and I can evaluate. Sometimes, if the subject is technical, I have to work with secondary sources that explain things, but I always try to verify as close to the information as possible. And because I'm aware of my bias (not only on this issue), I try hard to minimize that effect. I doubt I succeed 100%, but I think I'm pretty good at it.
You might have noticed that sometimes I defend posters I'm arguing against from attacks that I see as unfounded. I don't want to knock down strawmen. I want to get to the truth. So if I'm criticizing someone because they are saying A and A isn't true, and some other poster accuses that person of saying B, when they weren't saying that, I often respond against B. I say, "in fairness, he's not saying B; he's saying A." "In fairness to [poster]" is probably one of those phrases I type more than any other poster.
4. Is it possible you believe what you do about gun violence because of what you do and it biases you toward a more dystopian view than is warranted?
1. My wife is a child psychiatrist. She treats kids with autism a lot. Sometimes one of my kids behaves in ways that disturb me, but my wife tells me, "that's fairly common behavior." But that's "common among the kids who are seeing psychiatrists" which is not at all the same as common among kids in general. What she means is, "that's common enough in the autistic population and I see it enough times to know that it's not concerning in itself," and I know that. She doesn't have to say that whole mouthful every time. But if you were to hear her, you might take the wrong conclusion away. And in addition, sometimes she fools herself: after a long day, she can be drained and maybe she says, "that's common" when she means "I see it frequently."
2. I have never witnessed a murder or been on a crime scene when a murder is created. So my baseline experience in the world is "no homicides." Obviously I know they exist; but I'm naturally conditioned to see them as very rare. Which they are, depending on what is meant by "very." But "very" is the issue under dispute, right? So my experience biases me toward believing undercounts.
3. You're an emergency responder, both fire and EMT, IIRC. Well, nobody calls the EMT when they have an argument and settle the matter peacefully. Nor is EMT called if there's a burglary where the intruder takes a few things and leaves. You get called when there is blood on the floor. So naturally you are experientially conditioned in a different way than me, perhaps almost opposite. So you are prone to believing overcounts.
The way to address sample selection biases is to 1) be aware of them; and 2) try to correct for them. This is why I always read primary sources rather than rely on news reports, where possible. The primary source presents the information raw, and I can evaluate. Sometimes, if the subject is technical, I have to work with secondary sources that explain things, but I always try to verify as close to the information as possible. And because I'm aware of my bias (not only on this issue), I try hard to minimize that effect. I doubt I succeed 100%, but I think I'm pretty good at it.
You might have noticed that sometimes I defend posters I'm arguing against from attacks that I see as unfounded. I don't want to knock down strawmen. I want to get to the truth. So if I'm criticizing someone because they are saying A and A isn't true, and some other poster accuses that person of saying B, when they weren't saying that, I often respond against B. I say, "in fairness, he's not saying B; he's saying A." "In fairness to [poster]" is probably one of those phrases I type more than any other poster.
4. Is it possible you believe what you do about gun violence because of what you do and it biases you toward a more dystopian view than is warranted?
My guns stay locked in two safes (one for our handgun, the other for our shotgun) that can be opened quickly and easily if needed. More people need to keep the same philosophy.
superrific
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The problem with DGU stats is how DGU is defined. In some circles, this is counted as a DGU:
Guy walks into a bar, carrying. He starts being an asshole to everyone, because he knows he's strapped. Finally some dude punches him. Then the guy pulls out his gun, either to shoot the guy who punched him or maybe just to brandish it.
Of course, the problem here is that, in broader context, it wasn't really a DGU, was it? It was sorta kinda DGU. It was the use of a gun to resolve a situation that was initially caused and/or exacerbated by the gun.
I read a powerful series of law review articles about just this topic. Note that at the time, my views on gun control were very much like yours. Those articles, along with other sources, changed my mind. I can't tell you the specifics any more because it was two decades ago, and for that reason they aren't current and not all that useful even if I could remember them. But my experience, from looking at the data and from reading expert discussions, tells me that most claims about DGUs are wildly exaggerated and mostly to overcount them, often comically large in scope.