Mass Shooting & Gun Violence | Mississippi gun death rate twice that of Haiti

[Carolina Fever]

I love how people are jumping on one response to one poster who was clearly engaging in hyperbole and are trying to magnify it into something that it clearly wasn’t. No one is saying that what happened today isn’t tragic, or horrific, or unacceptable. But stop telling kids needlessly that they are going to die at school and then wondering why they are traumatized.

Who is telling kids this? No one has to tell them this for them to be anxious about it. They are anxious because it keeps happening.

 

[Zoo_View]

Again, y’all are arguing with ItsBoTime.

Why?

 

[Carolina Fever]

As far as I know, those things aren’t designed to kill or hurt people and in fact are subject to many laws and regulations
designed to make them safe for people. Not only that, but those things provide substantial benefits and could even be considered necessities.

This isn’t about whether we assume risk. It’s about whether we should strive to minimize risk.

Thank God someone gets it. I think 2manybluecups done had too many blue cups.

 

[Carolina Fever]

Again, y’all are arguing with ItsBoTime.

Why?

Is that who it is really?

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

That is just the odds of attending a school where there is a shooting -- any kind of shooting ranging from an incident in the parking lot to an Uvalde massacre. As I also wrote, the odds of being killed in a school shooting is far, far lower -- roughly .0000004% a year. Of course, as others have pointed out, just being present at a school in which a shooting occurs can be a very traumatic event -- depending on the type of shooting and how close to the violence. And it also doesn't count the almost 100% chance that a school will have a lockdown at some point during the child's attendance due to the possibility of some violent risk.

This whole thread has been a bit of a Rorschach test that intersects psychology, sociology and politics.

On the one hand, people have rightly pointed out that in a better society, kids should never even need to think about school shootings -- like most school children around the world. And there has been rightful outrage that the gun lobby has effectively stymied even modest gun reform laws -- regardless of whether such reforms would stop all or even most school shootings.

Another thing about school shootings -- above almost any other mass tragedy event -- is the natural emotional reaction to the death of children. People, especially parents, have an instinctual desire to protect children. And when a group of children are hurt, it results in a very visceral reaction for most psychologically healthy adults.

But none of those valid emotional and political view points can undercut the fact that mass school shootings like today are incredibly rare. And there are negative externalities to treating these kind of events as "realistic" or worth worrying about when you send your kids to school -- just like there were negative externalities to having kids hide under their desks for nuclear bomb threats in the 1950s and 1960s. When @aGDevil2k worries about his/her child surviving the next 7.75 years of school, that is an unfortunate byproduct of the media coverage of these shootings. It is much, much more likely that the child will die in the car on the way to school or the way back. And that is not an asinine observation. So many risks are taken in a car every day (speeding, maintenance, cell phone use, distracted driving, etc. etc.) and most of us use virtually no mental energy worrying about these very real risks. Instead, we worry about the risks of something that has virtually no chance of affecting our lives or the lives of our loved ones.

None of what I write is intended to discount the problem of school shootings. It is an especially American problem, which means that there are things we can do to make it better. But we don't need to engage in statistical malpractice to elevate the risk of school shootings to members of this board. As a general rule, our lives would be better if we aligned our reptilian brain to the risks we actually face on a daily basis.

How, statistically (absent malpractice), are the various “risks we actually face on a daily basis” trending the last decade or so?

 

[UNCRx85]

I think the laws seem to work well in every other country. Literally what else needs to be proven.

yeah, this doesn't happen anywhere else on earth. Only in America. The rest of the world just shakes their heads at our stubborn idiocy.

 

[Carolina Fever]

What are the chances people will be in a situation where they need a gun to defend themselves? Yet, people still have guns. I bet the chances of being a victim of gun violence is higher than the chances of using a gun for self defense.

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

That is just the odds of attending a school where there is a shooting -- any kind of shooting ranging from an incident in the parking lot to an Uvalde massacre. As I also wrote, the odds of being killed in a school shooting is far, far lower -- roughly .0000004% a year. Of course, as others have pointed out, just being present at a school in which a shooting occurs can be a very traumatic event -- depending on the type of shooting and how close to the violence. And it also doesn't count the almost 100% chance that a school will have a lockdown at some point during the child's attendance due to the possibility of some violent risk.

This whole thread has been a bit of a Rorschach test that intersects psychology, sociology and politics.

On the one hand, people have rightly pointed out that in a better society, kids should never even need to think about school shootings -- like most school children around the world. And there has been rightful outrage that the gun lobby has effectively stymied even modest gun reform laws -- regardless of whether such reforms would stop all or even most school shootings.

Another thing about school shootings -- above almost any other mass tragedy event -- is the natural emotional reaction to the death of children. People, especially parents, have an instinctual desire to protect children. And when a group of children are hurt, it results in a very visceral reaction for most psychologically healthy adults.

But none of those valid emotional and political view points can undercut the fact that mass school shootings like today are incredibly rare. And there are negative externalities to treating these kind of events as "realistic" or worth worrying about when you send your kids to school -- just like there were negative externalities to having kids hide under their desks for nuclear bomb threats in the 1950s and 1960s. When @aGDevil2k worries about his/her child surviving the next 7.75 years of school, that is an unfortunate byproduct of the media coverage of these shootings. It is much, much more likely that the child will die in the car on the way to school or the way back. And that is not an asinine observation. So many risks are taken in a car every day (speeding, maintenance, cell phone use, distracted driving, etc. etc.) and most of us use virtually no mental energy worrying about these very real risks. Instead, we worry about the risks of something that has virtually no chance of affecting our lives or the lives of our loved ones.

None of what I write is intended to discount the problem of school shootings. It is an especially American problem, which means that there are things we can do to make it better. But we don't need to engage in statistical malpractice to elevate the risk of school shootings to members of this board. As a general rule, our lives would be better if we aligned our reptilian brain to the risks we actually face on a daily basis.

When school shootings don’t happen anywhere else in the developed world, I could not care less how statistically small the chance of a child getting killed at school is in the USA.

It’s not zero percent and that’s all that matters. It is fucking embarrassing that this happens here and we as a society do absolutely nothing to stop it no matter how many times it happens.

 

[Calheel]

When school shootings don’t happen anywhere else in the developed world, I could not care less how statistically small the chance of a child getting killed at school is in the USA.

It’s not zero percent and that’s all that matters. It is fucking embarrassing that this happens here and we as a society do absolutely nothing to stop it no matter how many times it happens.

What do you mean when you write "that's all that matters"?

If you mean that we should take political steps to combat the problem, I am with you 100%.

If you mean that we should all be anxious about school shootings because it is a realistic risk facing all of us, then I disagree.

 

[Calheel]

How, statistically (absent malpractice), are the various “risks we actually face on a daily basis” trending the last decade or so?

Which specific risks?

If you mean vehicle fatalities, those have been trending up over the last decade.

 

[Zoo_View]

Is that who it is really?

He’s claimed to be ‘Bo.

Given the goalpost moving and the vigorous support of guns? I’d say it’s ‘Bo.

 

[EyeballKid]

What do you mean when you write "that's all that matters"?

If you mean that we should take political steps to combat the problem, I am with you 100%.

If you mean that we should all be anxious about school shootings because it is a realistic risk facing all of us, then I disagree.

I’m curious—do you have school-aged children? If so, have they gone through any active-shooter drills at school?

Ftr, I don’t have kids—but I certainly empathize with those who do. And I understand that I grew up in a bygone era called the 80s in which we didn’t encounter school shootings on a regular basis.

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

Which specific risks?

If you mean vehicle fatalities, those have been trending up over the last decade.

Per miles driven? While the prevalence of safety features in cars like lane violation alerts and automatic braking increase?

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

yeah, this doesn't happen anywhere else on earth. Only in America. The rest of the world just shakes their heads at our stubborn idiocy.

Except the British. They get it…and they’re not coming as a result so we’re all good.

 

[Calheel]

I’m curious—do you have school-aged children? If so, have they gone through any active-shooter drills at school?

Ftr, I don’t have kids—but I certainly empathize with those who do. And I understand that I grew up in a bygone era called the 80s in which we didn’t encounter school shootings on a regular basis.

Yes and yes. My own personal view is that the defensive "hardening" of schools and students is collectively more detrimental to the psyche of the 49,999,980 kids who are not killed by school shooters. There were lockdowns and practice lockdowns and social media messages (from kids and the school) all of which contributed to a certain level of psychic stress for my child. I am not saying that schools should take no defensive measures, but I do believe the collective anxiety placed on children is a net psychological negative -- especially given the psychological crisis for kids caused by social media, COVID, etc., etc.

 

[Calheel]

Per miles driven? While the prevalence of safety features in cars like lane violation alerts and automatic braking increase?

You can look up the stats. I am not making it up. I suspect the greater gross vehicle weight and higher speed limits over the past decade have contributed to the increased fatality rate.

Edit -- here is a NY Times article speculating on the causes: https://archive.is/Igq6X

 

[Zoo_View]

Children in many (most? all?) American schools do “active shooter drills.”

As a kid, we did fire drills 2-4 times a year. I never saw a school on fire as a kid. So, a fire drill was a lark. A reason to go outside. Talk to friends. Maybe flirt with a girl.

Today, school shootings happen at least once a month and are broadcast nationwide……so, an “active shooter” drill today isn’t the lark that a fire drill was in 1970.

 

[EyeballKid]

Yes and yes. My own personal view is that the defensive "hardening" of schools and students is collectively more detrimental to the psyche of the 49,999,980 kids who are not killed by school shooters. There were lockdowns and practice lockdowns and social media messages (from kids and the school) all of which contributed to a certain level of psychic stress for my child. I am not saying that schools should take no defensive measures, but I do believe the collective anxiety placed on children is a net psychological negative -- especially given the psychological crisis for kids caused by social media, COVID, etc., etc.

This sounds awfully close to an “ignore the problem and it’ll go away” situation.

I haven’t looked at the data closely, but I can’t think of a state that hasn’t had a shooting attempt or successful shooting incident in a public school.

I’m sure you’d agree that the state has a duty to protect children from such incidents.

Since they can’t change gun laws or make changes to public school security without significant budget increases fraught with political pressure and/or public voting, I’m curious what “defensive measures” you suggest schools take.

Maybe a nice flyer to inform student and parents of potential consequences of gun violence?

 

[Calheel]

This sounds awfully close to an “ignore the problem and it’ll go away” situation.

I haven’t looked at the data closely, but I can’t think of a state that hasn’t had a shooting attempt or successful shooting incident in a public school.

I’m sure you’d agree that the state has a duty to protect children from such incidents.

Since they can’t change gun laws or make changes to public school security without significant budget increases fraught with political pressure and/or public voting, I’m curious what “defensive measures” you suggest schools take.

Maybe a nice flyer to inform student and parents of potential consequences of gun violence?

Well, this is really the type of cost/benefit our politicians should be considering for all social problems, including Covid. In general, we don't do social policy in that way because of the immense political pressure to solve the problem -- damn the consequences. In California, we kept schools remote for way too long. The initial public health benefit was eventually offset by the long-term learning and emotional damage caused to students. (Most California schools didn't get back to full in-class instruction until Fall 2021).

So, what should schools do to address the risk of school shootings? Ted Cruz argued for single access point entrances with metal detectors for everyone. That seems to be an incredible waste of money and not even especially effective. Maybe that makes sense in certain neighborhoods with high crime rates, but not a logical idea for most schools.

Some have suggested creating bulletproof safe areas in every classroom and automatic closing doors that could quarantine a shooter at touch of a button. These ideas also seem very misguided.

Should there be active shooter drills at every school in America? Or at least every high school? To me, that is a harder question. Arguably, those drills might save some lives -- but that is not clear. And they certainly contribute to anxiety for an already vulnerable population, while taking away valuable instruction time. I think in the overall calculus, those kind of drills are a bad idea. Yet, almost all schools do them because there is political pressure to be prepared in case a shooting does happen.

 

[dcphx]

I don't think you're realizing what happens in several of those instances that you're brushing aside as not violent enough to matter. The results are not what leave people traumatized, it's the process. A gunshot is heard and, with no other information, everybody at the school is told there have been gunshots on campus and to lock down in their rooms and take cover. Students know of the possibility they might be killed, so they start texting their parents and friends like they may never see them again. Teachers start having to make decisions about how much to weigh their own self-preservation versus that of their students, which is a responsibility they are neither trained nor paid enough for. Everybody is trying to imagine who of their friends or colleagues or even acquaintances could have been shot or be the shooter. All of that happens even if only a single person, or even nobody, is actually harmed, and it doesn't just go away once the actual facts come out.

My wife has been in the vicinity of two public shootings at night, when I wasn't there, in the past three years: one at her workplace, one at a Nationals game. The shooting at her workplace turned out to be a conflict between two security guards that didn't extend beyond them, and she wasn't close to any of the violence at the stadium. And yet, I still have nightmares sometimes about her calling me in both cases to say there's a shooter nearby and that she wasn't sure what was next.

In handling insurance claims that often involve fatalities, this is commonly referenced as fear of imminent death.