Mass Shooting & Gun Violence

[ZZLPHeels]

OK, Mike Johnson. Did I take your statement out of context?

The problem is that you don't even know what point you are trying to make. You're flitting about aimlessly, hoping someone will buy your general sentiment that police officers are oppressed by unfavorable public opinion.

Everything I've read on the subject points to a single factor that outweighs others: the pay sucks. It's also likely that the decline of cop shows like Chips or NYPD Blue has made fewer kids look up to cops or dream about being one. It isn't Ferguson and it isn't any of those cases where the cops get to kill people without repercussion.

Ok. Those cops who have stated otherwise are just imagining things. The links I provided that specifically cite unfavorable public opinion is causing a staffing crisis must all be fake. You know it all.

 

[superrific]

Ok. Those cops who have stated otherwise are just imagining things. The links I provided that specifically cite unfavorable public opinion is causing a staffing crisis must all be fake. You know it all.

The reason we have empirical studies with data is because people's own subjective impressions are unreliable. For instance:

1. People mistakenly attribute causation to factors that are merely coincidental for them. That appears to be the case here; the retention difficulties started in 2010 (in the one study). But it's hard to observe for any individual person, so they wouldn't necessarily notice a trend unless the trend is going on for some time.

2. Bias. Cops don't like criticism -- I mean, duh. So when cops start receiving a lot of public criticism, what do they do? They say, "all this criticism is hurting public safety." Duh. I'm not saying they are lying (some might be) so much as their beliefs are motivated.

3. Availability bias. When an issue isn't discussed widely, lots of people don't really notice it. When it becomes discussed, people start to see it everywhere. That's likely what happened with the false narratives you mentioned earlier. It's easy to believe the cops shot a guy in a car for reading a book when people around you are talking about racist cops all the time. Indeed, though you didn't make this point explicitly, I think you were implying it. It cuts both ways, though. Cops see retention issues everywhere once retention is in the public eye.

This happens so frequently in public discourse that we are all a) familiar with it and b) participants in it. I try not to -- that is, I try to remain objective -- but our psychology makes full success on this front extremely difficult. In the evolutionary context, there were so many threats that our early ancestors probably could not process them all. So they processed the things that they knew to be issues -- i.e. the things that had been pointed out to them through experience, communication, and then later, legend.

****
It's not a question of being fake. It's a question of the reliability of perceptions. People claim that hydroxychloroquine saved their lives from Covid. That doesn't mean they are right. Women were convinced that breast implants were causing immunological problems; that turned out not to be the case. Those women weren't lying, most likely. Most likely, they heard discussions of it; they made correlations in their mind; and then they made judgments on the correlations.

Again, this is why we have empirical studies.

 

[donbosco]

I am reminded of Bacon's Four Idols.

 

[Icky Mettle]

I'm honestly curious how they know what percentage of Mormons voted for Trump. Exit polling?

When you vote, it doesn’t ask whether or not you are Mormon?

 

[Carolina Fever]

Really haven't heard much about this guy, like how he was in school, and anything about his parents. I don't see this defense working to get him off from stabbing his brother to death, then shooting him, and then going on a shooting spree and killing people at random. Especially when you consider this part...

According to warrants, the teenager was found in a shed with a shotgun, $772 in cash, multiple pistols, "projectiles," knives, rifles, rifle magazines, shell casings, ammunition rounds and bullets.

Inside the Thompson home, officers found 11 firearms and 170 boxes of ammunition. Detectives also found what appears to be a confession note signed by Thompson describing the killing of his brother, James Thompson, inside the home.

Raleigh mass shooting suspect's defense will blame medication use, 'diminished capacity'

Raleigh mass shooting suspect's defense will blame medication use, 'diminished capacity'

The Raleigh teen accused of killing five people and injuring two others in a mass shooting spree in October 2022 will claim that a reaction to prescription medicine contributed to his actions, according to a court filing in his case.

www.wral.com

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Really haven't heard much about this guy, like how he was in school, and anything about his parents. I don't see this defense working to get him off from stabbing his brother to death, then shooting him, and then going on a shooting spree and killing people at random. Especially when you consider this part...

According to warrants, the teenager was found in a shed with a shotgun, $772 in cash, multiple pistols, "projectiles," knives, rifles, rifle magazines, shell casings, ammunition rounds and bullets.

Inside the Thompson home, officers found 11 firearms and 170 boxes of ammunition. Detectives also found what appears to be a confession note signed by Thompson describing the killing of his brother, James Thompson, inside the home.

Raleigh mass shooting suspect's defense will blame medication use, 'diminished capacity'

Raleigh mass shooting suspect's defense will blame medication use, 'diminished capacity'

The Raleigh teen accused of killing five people and injuring two others in a mass shooting spree in October 2022 will claim that a reaction to prescription medicine contributed to his actions, according to a court filing in his case.

www.wral.com

I thought he was a vegetable after blowing half his head off.

 

[ZenMode]

Muslim -115
White supremacist +105

Live updates: Police say attacker who killed 2 people and injured 3 at British synagogue is dead​

Two people were killed and three others were seriously wounded Thursday in a synagogue attack in northern England on the holiest day of the Jewish year, police said. The suspect was also killed.

Police had initially said they believed the suspect was dead, but couldn’t immediately confirm it because of concerns he had an explosive on him. A bomb disposal team was at the scene.

What to know:

• The early response: Greater Manchester Police said they were called to the Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation Synagogue in Crumpsall, a suburb in the north of Manchester, shortly after 9:30 a.m. by someone who said he had witnessed a car being driven toward members of the public and that one man had been stabbed. Two people were killed and the suspect is also believed dead.
• Motive unknown: The motive behind the attack is unknown. But it took place on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement and most solemn day in the Jewish calendar. Synagogues across the country, as well as around the world, will be full of people.
• The response: Prime Minister Keir Starmer said he was appalled by the attack and additional police officers would be deployed at synagogues across the U.K. King Charles III said he and Queen Camilla were “deeply shocked and saddened″ to learn of the attack “on such a significant day for the Jewish community.″

Live updates: Police say attacker who killed 2 people and injured 3 at British synagogue is dead

Two people were killed and three others were seriously wounded Thursday in a synagogue attack in northern England on the holiest day of the Jewish year, police said.

apnews.com

 

[duluoz]

It's not a question of being fake. It's a question of the reliability of perceptions. People claim that hydroxychloroquine saved their lives from Covid. That doesn't mean they are right. Women were convinced that breast implants were causing immunological problems; that turned out not to be the case. Those women weren't lying, most likely. Most likely, they heard discussions of it; they made correlations in their mind; and then they made judgments on the correlations.

I happen to agree with this ^
But it’s curious to me that you don’t agree with yourself, based on the RFK Jr. back and forth you and I had, where I posited that he actually believes what he’s saying, and subconsciously molds every detail to serve those beliefs and biases… and therefore “lying” is not a suitable word for most of what he does. Here’s what you said:

Aren't you basically trivializing the whole concept of a lie? Every lie can be cast as "sincerely believing in the moment that the untruth is true." What makes you think Trump is lying and not RFK? Or do you think Trump also sincerely believes in his warped mind that it's true? If this is the way out of an accusation of lying, then we will need to shelve lying as a relevant concept.

 

[superrific]

I happen to agree with this ^
But it’s curious to me that you don’t agree with yourself, based on the RFK Jr. back and forth you and I had, where I posited that he actually believes what he’s saying, and subconsciously molds every detail to serve those beliefs and biases… and therefore “lying” is not a suitable word for most of what he does. Here’s what you said:

I would say there's a big difference between a) somebody who has studied an issue for years and years, has access to all the scientific papers he wants, and continues to spout bullshit and b) a person with breast implants who has an autoimmune issue, hears about maybe implants causing them, and assigns causality.

I wasn't saying that "genuine belief, not lies" is not real. In fact, I'm a person who insists that we distinguish between mere mistakes and lies. Once I was at a restaurant and I asked the waitress about something on the menu. She said X, and then a few minutes later came back and said, "actually I lied, X is not true." I said something like, "Did you lie, or were you mistaken, because those aren't the same thing."

It's not the concept I was objecting to -- rather, the application to RFK. To me, the best you can say about him is willful blindness, which is a form of lying.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

I would say there's a big difference between a) somebody who has studied an issue for years and years, has access to all the scientific papers he wants, and continues to spout bullshit and b) a person with breast implants who has an autoimmune issue, hears about maybe implants causing them, and assigns causality.

I wasn't saying that "genuine belief, not lies" is not real. In fact, I'm a person who insists that we distinguish between mere mistakes and lies. Once I was at a restaurant and I asked the waitress about something on the menu. She said X, and then a few minutes later came back and said, "actually I lied, X is not true." I said something like, "Did you lie, or were you mistaken, because those aren't the same thing."

It's not the concept I was objecting to -- rather, the application to RFK. To me, the best you can say about him is willful blindness, which is a form of lying.

I get what you are saying about lies vs mistakes but people often say “I lied” as a way to say they said something incorrectly. It is just an expression. People also do it to show that they are taking responsibility for being wrong, not to imply there was an intent to deceive.

I hope when you responded you were kind of kidding around.

Reminds me of a recording I listened to from a previous EE professor where he was being interviewed about his experience in concentration camps and escaping execution near the end of the war by jumping off the train in the middle of the night. At some point the interviewer used the word “hung” and the professor jumped in and corrected him that the word is “hanged.”

Like, dude, read the room. The guy is interviewing you as a permanent record of your experience during the war. He doesn’t need a lecture on hanged vs hung.

Edit: if this came off as being accusatory I didn’t mean it to.

 

[ZenMode]

Muslim -115
White supremacist +105

Live updates: Police say attacker who killed 2 people and injured 3 at British synagogue is dead​

Two people were killed and three others were seriously wounded Thursday in a synagogue attack in northern England on the holiest day of the Jewish year, police said. The suspect was also killed.

Police had initially said they believed the suspect was dead, but couldn’t immediately confirm it because of concerns he had an explosive on him. A bomb disposal team was at the scene.

What to know:

• The early response: Greater Manchester Police said they were called to the Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation Synagogue in Crumpsall, a suburb in the north of Manchester, shortly after 9:30 a.m. by someone who said he had witnessed a car being driven toward members of the public and that one man had been stabbed. Two people were killed and the suspect is also believed dead.
• Motive unknown: The motive behind the attack is unknown. But it took place on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement and most solemn day in the Jewish calendar. Synagogues across the country, as well as around the world, will be full of people.
• The response: Prime Minister Keir Starmer said he was appalled by the attack and additional police officers would be deployed at synagogues across the U.K. King Charles III said he and Queen Camilla were “deeply shocked and saddened″ to learn of the attack “on such a significant day for the Jewish community.″

Live updates: Police say attacker who killed 2 people and injured 3 at British synagogue is dead

Two people were killed and three others were seriously wounded Thursday in a synagogue attack in northern England on the holiest day of the Jewish year, police said.

apnews.com

"Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Stephen Watson said the attacker was wearing a vest “which had the appearance of an explosive device.”

Muslim -300
White supremacist +275

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

"Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Stephen Watson said the attacker was wearing a vest “which had the appearance of an explosive device.”

Muslim -300
White supremacist +275

What is with the running total? What point are you trying to make?

In my eyes both groups are just evil people.

 

[ZenMode]

What is with the running total? What point are you trying to make?

In my eyes both groups are just evil people.

The odds reflect my subjective view of which evil group the suspect likely came from.

 

[superrific]

I get what you are saying about lies vs mistakes but people often say “I lied” as a way to say they said something incorrectly. It is just an expression. People also do it to show that they are taking responsibility for being wrong, not to imply there was an intent to deceive.

I hope when you responded you were kind of kidding around.

Reminds me of a recording I listened to from a previous EE professor where he was being interviewed about his experience in concentration camps and escaping execution near the end of the war by jumping off the train in the middle of the night. At some point the interviewer used the word “hung” and the professor jumped in and corrected him that the word is “hanged.”

Like, dude, read the room. The guy is interviewing you as a permanent record of your experience during the war. He doesn’t need a lecture on hanged vs hung.

Edit: if this came off as being accusatory I didn’t mean it to.

1. Yes, I was mostly kidding. But:
2. Language has effects. One of the problems in our country is the inability to distinguish mistakes from lies. Thus do we compare grotesque serial liars with merely mistaken or imprecise statements (like Obama re: Obamacare). Well, maybe one reason is that people have learned a language that doesn't make that distinction.

We think in language. Our experience of the world is mediated and in some ways created by language. Language is important. So when the language gets distorted by slang, it can have real effects. I love colorful language. I love slang. I'm one of the many, many people who think English as a colloquial language has been vastly improved by the adoption of black slang (and to a lesser extent, spanish-language). But good slang doesn't distort.

3. I don't think there is any comparison between what I'm saying and "the word is hanged." The second one is pure pedantry. My point sounds in ethics. If our language doesn't respect important distinctions, then how can we expect people to?

 

[nycfan]

 

[ZenMode]

"Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Stephen Watson said the attacker was wearing a vest “which had the appearance of an explosive device.”

Muslim -300
White supremacist +275

I can't imagine a much better name than Jihad.

He said police fatally shot the suspect, who was later identified as Jihad Al-Shamie, 35, a British citizen of Syrian descent.

Car and knife attack at U.K. synagogue that killed 2 people declared a terrorist incident

Thursday's incident in Manchester came as the community observed Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[whatntarnation]

Solid. They may never be accepted by the Evangelicals, but it seems they have a deeper understanding of Jesus's teachings

 

[StrangePackage]

I respect and admire zenmode's ability to troll this thread - about gun violence in the United States - with stories about a knife attack in the United Kingdom.

 

[thebruinbleedstarheelblue]

Solid. They may never be accepted by the Evangelicals, but it seems they have a deeper understanding of Jesus's teachings

the followers or the leadership? Some cults are able to rope in good people...and demand good behavior from them.

 

[ZenMode]

I respect and admire zenmode's ability to troll this thread - about gun violence in the United States - with stories about a knife attack in the United Kingdom.

It didn't strike me as worthy of its own thread and I didn't see a another thread other than maybe Current Events.