Men’s College Basketball Catch-All

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But ironically, the ability to pay players has actually helped keep players in college and build familiarity. We have a fifth year!!! RJ and a third year Seth Trimble. And we'd have a 6th year Armando if we could get the NCAA to play ball. NIL is actually quite helpful on that issue.
Nah. That's just an artefact of Covid. Under the old system, we'd have retained Trimble because he didn't have better prospects by transferring. And we've had retained RJ for four years, just like we did for Marcus Paige and Joel Berry.
 
It is easy to say that in the moment, with as much up in the air as there is now, but allowing African American players athletic eligibility absolutely changed the collegiate landscape to a much greater - and more far reaching - extent than anything since.
Nah. It expanded the player pool by a lot but it didn't affect the relationship between schools, players and fans. It greatly changed the social context of the game, and the social meaning of the game, but that isn't changing the game.

It's similar to MLB. What changed MLB more? Desegregation or free agency? From what I've read, pretty much everyone in baseball would say free agency. The game in the 1960s was basically the same as in the 1940s, just with better players.
 
Maybe its changed the player personnel function behind the scenes, but it has a relatively minimal change on the game you watch on TV.

And we've had one-and-done for 20 years (albeit mainly at a few schools). So, there is nothing new with players playing for just one year. And if you look at UNC's roster, there is a lot of continuity from year to year. It is not as though we are trotting out four-five new starters every year like Duke has been doing for the last 10 years.
It's a question of fundamentally changing the nature of the sport and the fan's relationship to it. Calling it a change to "player personnel function" doesn't account for the effect on the fans and the relationship of the program to the fans.

Suppose the NBA had a new rule: after every season, teams can designate two players as keepers and the rest of the players in the league get randomly redistributed. That would be an incredible change to the entire concept of the NBA. You can call it "player personnel" but in reality it's about whether you could think about the Spurs or the Knicks as "teams" as opposed to collections of players.

In college, this is particularly an issue, because college basketball has been known for the passion of the players. The players weren't paid; they weren't drafted. They got to choose where to attend college, and then they played for the pride of the program for the most part. Some were playing for the pros, but mostly not. Now that's mostly gone. Everyone is a pro player.

In fact, it's not clear to me that it will remain tied to colleges any more. In the old, old days, the players were students first. The fans -- primarily students and alums -- would cheer for the team out of school pride, like in HS. Then the NBA prospered and grew and the college game took on some aspect of a minor leagues. But the link to the colleges was a) most players were not going to be pros and b) everyone had to be a student, given that they were being paid in scholarships. In today's world, in what sense is the Tar Heel basketball team tied to the university? Everyone is a pro. Players don't necessarily stick around long enough to be part of a community. Even the role players can move around.

And to put an even finer point on it, why will the requirement to be a student survive? It is a horizontal constraint among competitors just as much as amateur status or transfer restrictions. If some school wants to offer the players the opportunity to play without having to be on track for a degree, why not? And if that goes away, then there's really no meaningful sense in which it would be anything other than a minor league.
 
Nah. It expanded the player pool by a lot but it didn't affect the relationship between schools, players and fans. It greatly changed the social context of the game, and the social meaning of the game, but that isn't changing the game.

It's similar to MLB. What changed MLB more? Desegregation or free agency? From what I've read, pretty much everyone in baseball would say free agency. The game in the 1960s was basically the same as in the 1940s, just with better players.
Look at the quality of the sport, particularly at the collegiate level, in the 1950s vs. that of the 1970s. It absolutely changed the game. And I would point out that the recent changes have nothing to do with how the game, itself, is played.
 
disseminating IC premium paywall content here (or anywhere) isn't cool....
I have no idea what content was shared or who shared it. But hypothetically, if I pay to read that content am I not I free to do with it what I choose? I didn’t sign a confidentiality agreement as part of my membership. What if I tweet the information and then post the tweet? Now it’s in the public sphere, right? How does posting content from IC differ from posting paywalled content from The Athletic or The Washington Post?
 
Wellllllll.....


Oooooo....this should be fun.

Tell me what changes I don't like.

Also, you have to be able to answer follow up questions...and understand I'm not here for emotional funsies nor will i lie.

So... that being said, what changes do I not like?
You said it’s dead. Maybe you like it being dead.

I don’t know specifically what you don’t like. Care to elaborate?
 
I have no idea what content was shared or who shared it. But hypothetically, if I pay to read that content am I not I free to do with it what I choose? I didn’t sign a confidentiality agreement as part of my membership. What if I tweet the information and then post the tweet? Now it’s in the public sphere, right? How does posting content from IC differ from posting paywalled content from The Athletic or The Washington Post?
IC shared tidbits about several situations around the basketball program that definitely haven't really made it out into the public sphere yet.

IC premium subscribers pay to read the content themselves, not copy/paste and share it verbatim with anyone/everyone.

from the "Message board rules" page on IC: "With the existence of the premium forum for the discussion of premium content, we ask that discussion of these articles remain on that forum and not on the main forum - which otherwise would defeat the purpose of providing premium content."

the athletic and the washington post are massive entities owned by billion dollar media conglomerates. IC, though also owned by a much larger company, consists of a small group of dedicated UNC reporters who have spent years and years building connections and they are competing in a very small, specialized marketplace. giving out their hard-earned premium info for free is a little more damaging to their business model imo than giving out paywalled athletic or wp content but regardless, its also against IC rules to post paywalled content from other entities. so, they're consistent about respecting others people's work, too.
 
IC shared tidbits about several situations around the basketball program that definitely haven't really made it out into the public sphere yet.

IC premium subscribers pay to read the content themselves, not copy/paste and share it verbatim with anyone/everyone.

from the "Message board rules" page on IC: "With the existence of the premium forum for the discussion of premium content, we ask that discussion of these articles remain on that forum and not on the main forum - which otherwise would defeat the purpose of providing premium content."

the athletic and the washington post are massive entities owned by billion dollar media conglomerates. IC, though also owned by a much larger company, consists of a small group of dedicated UNC reporters who have spent years and years building connections and they are competing in a very small, specialized marketplace. giving out their hard-earned premium info for free is a little more damaging to their business model imo than giving out paywalled athletic or wp content but regardless, its also against IC rules to post paywalled content from other entities. so, they're consistent about respecting others people's work, too.
So all those are rules about IC. This isn’t IC.
 
So all those are rules about IC. This isn’t IC.
wow man, you don't say.

the person who posted the premium content faces a possible suspension or ban from IC for doing so.

many/most of us here are/were members of IC and have respect for the good work they do over there. some of us know various staffers personally. and like i said in my last post, ben, rell, etc. have spent YEARS cultivating the relationships that give them access to that type of information. handing out their premium content for free is just disrespectful nonsense.

i don't know where you're going with all of this but its a weird hill to die on. IC literally gave birth to this site.
 
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Look at the quality of the sport, particularly at the collegiate level, in the 1950s vs. that of the 1970s. It absolutely changed the game. And I would point out that the recent changes have nothing to do with how the game, itself, is played.
1. I think my terminology is imprecise. I'm stumbling over the rhetoric of "changed the game," which is a mistake because "changing the game" is typically associated with great players. And we need to separate the changes that occur in college basketball in particular as opposed to simply the evolution of the game of basketball. There's a lot more three point shooting in college basketball today than 30 years ago. But there's a lot more in the NBA too, and in the international game, so that's not a change in college basketball.

2. Consider that you're trying to explain the difference between college basketball and pro basketball to someone who is familiar with the game but not the institutions. For virtually all of my life, that explanation would begin with the difference between professionals and amateurs. Sure, there were differences in shot clocks and three point line distance, but these were never the defining distinctions. You wouldn't start to explain the differences between the NBA and college by pointing to quarters versus halves, or even necessarily the quality of play. The main difference is that the players were amateurs who were playing for a school team in one case, and professional players in the other. That difference structured the relationship between the players with each other and the coaches, with the fans, with the source of excitement.

To confirm, let's try the exercise with other categories of hoops. The main difference between HS and college ball is that, prep schools excluded, high schools are drawing their talent from a local school district. Coaches can't just go out and recruit a new PF to fill a hole on the team (again, in most instances). Most people in the stands have a connection to the players -- either as classmates, children, or kids people have known from the community since they were children. I attended a game last year because the visiting team featured a kid who was on my son's select team when they were 7. That kid is playing DI ball now. It was interesting to see how he developed over those ten years. I saw him as a kid. I caught up a little with his dad, a former professional player who coached the team. It was a different experience.

[Incidentally, my son was amazing as a 7 year old and just as good as that kid. I had taught him a quick release, and he was an exceptional shooter -- he would regularly knock down 7 or 8 17 footers in a row off a catch or off the dribble. Nobody could guard him. Alas, that was my son's peak. After all, he has my genes. Also, my son turned out to be extremely injury prone and he's only 6'1", and was never going to commit hard to hoops because education is too important for us, but anyway I digress.]

And do the same with international basketball. Again, you wouldn't explain the difference between the games by pointing to the different shape of the key or the offensive goaltending rule. It's that the teams are composed of players from one country, and they are representing that country. It creates a different level of passion among the players and the fans. As with HS, teams generally can't plug holes on their roster by importing new talent. If you're the French coach, you have big men for years and your challenge is to find some guards; if you don't have the guards, you need to run your team through your big men and that determines your team. Smaller countries have even more of this.

And so going back to that question at the beginning: what is the difference between college basketball and pro basketball now? Nothing, really. College basketball is pro basketball with slightly different rules. That doesn't make the "college" game today worse than it was; maybe it makes it better (though I doubt it). But it does mean that it's fundamentally different than "college basketball" as we knew it.

*****
I'm having some trouble finding the words to express my thoughts. And that undercuts my confidence in my own position. I believe that most difficulties of expression are actually difficulties with concepts. A well-thought out idea is much easier to explain than a messy one-- well, that's true for me at least (probably true of most people but whatever). So I will admit that this discussion has revealed to me that my thoughts on this matter are perhaps more a matter of intuition than I had thought. Funny, that. It's almost like reasoned discussion can be illuminating.

At the same time, my intuition on this point is quite strong, by which I mean I keep coming back to it. When I try to formulate in my head the contrary view, that the college game is not fundamentally different than it was, it keeps crumbling. I think back to the recruitment of Jawad; back then, Bret Bearup posted on the uncbasketball boards for a little while. He was one of the player-empowerment advocates. I wrote eloquently about what would be lost if he had his way -- the involvement in the program from the fans, especially as it pertained to recruiting. At the time we were recruiting Jawad, and it was tense because we had already (fortunately!) missed on our first target (James White) and we got in late with Jawad. He had been a Maryland lean, and when it came time for his announcement, there was excitement and nerves. We were looking good; but if we missed on him, we weren't going to get anyone. Incidentally, Bret sent me a PM asking if I was interested in a job doing community outreach. LOL. I told him I was in law school and also that I would be shit at that job, message board posts not withstanding.
 
wow man, you don't say.

the person who posted the premium content faces a possible suspension or ban on IC for doing so.

many/most of us here are/were members of IC and have respect for the good work they do over there. some of us know various staffers personally. and like i said in my last post, ben, rell, etc. have spent YEARS cultivating the relationships that give them access to that type of information. handing out their premium content for free is disrespectful nonsense.

i don't know where you're going with all of this but its a weird hill to die on. IC literally gave birth to this site.
I'm not going anywhere with this nor dying on any hill. Is the premium content that was posted the "UNC Basketball Items Worth Noting" pinned at the top of the premium BB board?

I gladly gave my money to IC for 20 years. Then with minimal notice they decided to eliminate the only thing there I really game a shit about. I was not a premium subscriber for access to their premium content, but to financially support their endeavors so they could continue to provide a platform (ZZL) that I appreciated. First, they fucked the whole ZZL dynamic by splitting the boards. Then they eliminated ZZL-P. They didn't care about what I wanted when they made their business decision. I thought their decision was pretty disrespectful to a lot of people who had supported them for years.

I am not disseminating any IC premium content anywhere else, but not out of a sense of obligation to respect their rules. I've just never found any premium content there that interested me enough to discuss. And I admit I don't understand the nature of the relationships with their corporate hierarchy, but IC is part of 247sports and that is owned by Paramount, so I don't see a difference in Paramount and other large media conglomerates.

I am arguing the point hypothetically. You seem to be taking it personally.
 
Maybe its changed the player personnel function behind the scenes, but it has a relatively minimal change on the game you watch on TV.

And we've had one-and-done for 20 years (albeit mainly at a few schools). So, there is nothing new with players playing for just one year. And if you look at UNC's roster, there is a lot of continuity from year to year. It is not as though we are trotting out four-five new starters every year like Duke has been doing for the last 10 years.
For as much as our fans complain on the message boards about the new transfer rules, our football and basketball teams really haven’t been negatively impacted at all by it. Ole Miss poaching Diego Pounds is really the only big loss that I can think of off the top of my head. On the flip side, we’ve brought in some big contributors from the portal over the last few years.
 
I'm not going anywhere with this nor dying on any hill. Is the premium content that was posted the "UNC Basketball Items Worth Noting" pinned at the top of the premium BB board?

I gladly gave my money to IC for 20 years. Then with minimal notice they decided to eliminate the only thing there I really game a shit about. I was not a premium subscriber for access to their premium content, but to financially support their endeavors so they could continue to provide a platform (ZZL) that I appreciated. First, they fucked the whole ZZL dynamic by splitting the boards. Then they eliminated ZZL-P. They didn't care about what I wanted when they made their business decision. I thought their decision was pretty disrespectful to a lot of people who had supported them for years.

I am not disseminating any IC premium content anywhere else, but not out of a sense of obligation to respect their rules. I've just never found any premium content there that interested me enough to discuss. And I admit I don't understand the nature of the relationships with their corporate hierarchy, but IC is part of 247sports and that is owned by Paramount, so I don't see a difference in Paramount and other large media conglomerates.

I am arguing the point hypothetically. You seem to be taking it personally.
your 2nd paragraph here actually indicates that you too are taking this personally and have a little beef with IC.

obviously i don't give a rats behind about 247/paramount, but i am friendly with and have respect for several of the staffers at IC who have worked diligently over the years to develop relationships and trust that lead to that inside information. subscribers blasting their info for free all over the internets devalues their work.

anyway, i've said my piece here and it looks like rock agrees that we shouldn't copy/paste IC premium content here until/unless it is being widely reported by other outlets.
 
For as much as our fans complain on the message boards about the new transfer rules, our football and basketball teams really haven’t been negatively impacted at all by it. Ole Miss poaching Diego Pounds is really the only big loss that I can think of off the top of my head. On the flip side, we’ve brought in some big contributors from the portal over the last few years.
To the contrary, the rule has overwhelmingly benefitted the vast majority of our teams. UNC is a very attractive destination for many players.
 
I definitely have a beef with IC but that is irrelevant to my point that they deserve no more or less consideration with respect to their paywalled content than any other media source. If it's OK to copy and paste paywalled passages from the Wall Street Journal or The Athletic then it should be reasonable to treat Paramount similarly. My personal feelings about IC have no impact on my premise.
 
i don't copy/paste any paywalled content but many IC premium subscribers will disagree with you that those situations are perfectly analogous or that IC staffers deserve the same consideration as the nyt/wapo.

some of them have been covering UNC athletics and cultivating their sources for the various iterations of IC for decades, since well before entities like scout/247/paramount bought the site.... it is them who people respect and don't want to devalue.
 
I definitely have a beef with IC but that is irrelevant to my point that they deserve no more or less consideration with respect to their paywalled content than any other media source. If it's OK to copy and paste paywalled passages from the Wall Street Journal or The Athletic then it should be reasonable to treat Paramount similarly. My personal feelings about IC have no impact on my premise.
None of that is OK. Do you want Rock hauled into a Paris jail?
 
I have no idea what content was shared or who shared it. But hypothetically, if I pay to read that content am I not I free to do with it what I choose? I didn’t sign a confidentiality agreement as part of my membership. What if I tweet the information and then post the tweet? Now it’s in the public sphere, right? How does posting content from IC differ from posting paywalled content from The Athletic or The Washington Post?
No, you're not free to do whatever you want with content just because you paid to read it. That's the definition of copyright infringement. If I pay to buy a copy of a book or magazine I'm not free to copy the book or magazine and hand out my copies to people on the sidewalk. It's no different with a news article, whether it's from the paper NYT or from the website. IC long had a policy that you were not allowed to cut and paste entire articles from behind a paywall.

So as a legal matter you're not free to share anyone's content; WaPo or NYT or IC. As a moral/personal matter a lot of us have been IC subscribers and members for a lot of years, and I would personally be more hesitant to share their content (or any other small/independent media company's content) than that of a media behemoth like MYT or WaPo, but if you don't feel that way that's perfectly fine and understandable.
 
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