NC Political History: East v West, The State of the State?

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donbosco

donbosco

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I've been rereading Rob Christensen's The Paradox of Tar Heel Politics: The Personalities, Elections, and Events that Shaped Modern North Carolina and am curious about what folks here think about NC.

I'm mainly thinking about more modern times here as the East/West schisms and misunderstandings from the colonial to the mid-20th century are fairly well known and understood. Years back V.O. Key posited that NC was run by Progressive Plutocrats and we've had the Shelby Dynasty and The Branchhead Boys over the years in control.

But in the lifetimes of folks that post here I wonder if anyone can pose any observations over differences between the political culture of the state from the Coast to the Mountains and all points in between? Do we divide into metropolitan areas first? Wilmington, Raleigh, Greensboro/High Point, Charlotte, Asheville? The Eastern Rural Zones, the foothills, the sandhills, the swamps. Have we come to be flattened out or do we still have mini-machines like The Branchhead Boys and the Shelby Dynasty or the Ponder Brothers (Madison County) operating across the state?

Just curious about y'all's 'takes' on who is running things these days and how they're doing it?
 
Who is running things these days? The cultural descendants of the folks who instigated the Wilmington coup d'etat of 1898 and the simultaneous massacre of black citizens. But in keeping with cultural diversity, today's attacks include both black and Hispanic citizens. And today's attacks are nationwide rather than on just one town in southeastern North Carolina.

How are they doing it? By convincing white voters that all their problems are caused by uppity, lazy black citizens and that they will be better off paying white people build their homes, clean their homes, cut their grass, and pick their crops than they are paying Hispanic peoples to do those tasks.

ETA: And if white people cannot be found to do the tasks outlined above, perhaps Today's GOP might start floating the idea that the 13th Amendment needs to be repealed and replaced by something that recognizes and addresses the "flaws" in the 13th Amendment that have been exposed in the last 160 years. I'm pretty sure Trump's Republican Party believes there are no problems with the Black and Hispanic communities in the United States that could not be solved by an "amended" 13th Amendment.
 
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donbosco said:
I've been rereading Rob Christensen's The Paradox of Tar Heel Politics: The Personalities, Elections, and Events that Shaped Modern North Carolina and am curious about what folks here think about NC.

I'm mainly thinking about more modern times here as the East/West schisms and misunderstandings from the colonial to the mid-20th century are fairly well known and understood. Years back V.O. Key posited that NC was run by Progressive Plutocrats and we've had the Shelby Dynasty and The Branchhead Boys over the years in control.

But in the lifetimes of folks that post here I wonder if anyone can pose any observations over differences between the political culture of the state from the Coast to the Mountains and all points in between? Do we divide into metropolitan areas first? Wilmington, Raleigh, Greensboro/High Point, Charlotte, Asheville? The Eastern Rural Zones, the foothills, the sandhills, the swamps. Have we come to be flattened out or do we still have mini-machines like The Branchhead Boys and the Shelby Dynasty or the Ponder Brothers (Madison County) operating across the state?

Just curious about y'all's 'takes' on who is running things these days and how they're doing it?
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For most of my career things were run by "eastern NC folks" Hunt ,Easley, Perdue. I got pretty tired of that crowd with their tired patronage
McCroy came in cleaned the whole crowd out and brought in retired or unemployed folks from Charlote And they of course sucked
Interesting our Gov and AG are CH boys....Hopefully the triangle is flexing a bit
And of course today votes don't much count. Gerrymandering assures that except in Statewide races
 
donbosco said:
Welp...thanks for the interest @Mulberry Heel!
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Haha! Sorry, I had a long day at work and never got around to replying. It's an interesting topic - I've read V.O. Key's Southern Politics in State and Nation and some other books on NC politics, such as William D. Snider's (former editor of the Greensboro News & Record) Helms & Hunt: The North Carolina Senate Race, 1984, which has a good section on the history and style of NC politics up through the 1970s. I think the voting pattern of NC politics has changed considerably over the years. Instead of an East-West split in state politics (I believe there used to be a tradition of alternating either US Senators or Governors from the eastern and western sections of the state), the split now appears to be almost entirely between more liberal, Democratic-voting urban counties and college towns - Mecklenburg, Wake, Durham, Guilford, etc, and places like Boone, Greenville, etc. - and deep red Republican rural and some suburban counties. And that is now pretty much true statewide - the old east/west split may still exist in some ways, but politically western and eastern rural NC is pretty much all deep red, except for some majority-black rural counties in the eastern part of the state. It's very much a rural/urban split now, and the differences are huge. I live in a blue urban county, but grew up in a rural NC foothills factory town, and it's not just the political differences I notice, but the economic differences are now stark. Every single furniture and textile factory in my hometown has closed and the economy is much worse than I remember growing up, while the urban county I now live in is overall doing much better economically, and is also still growing and changing in terms of population and diversity.

As for political machines they certainly still exist, not so much in historical terms of small town courthouse gangs, but more in terms of something like the Art Pope/Phil Berger organization that dominates the legislature. Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but just my two cents.
 
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Mulberry Heel said:
As for political machines they certainly still exist, not so much in historical terms of small town courthouse gangs, but more in terms of something like the Art Pope/Phil Berger organization that dominates the legislature. Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but just my two cents.
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UNC new chancellor part of that
 
Interesting topic. I grew up in western NC and remember various family members always complaining that the eastern part of the state controlled the politics lol. I haven’t lived in NC for quite some time now and truthfully don’t have a great pulse on the political landscape there anymore, but what Mulberry Heel says about the urban/rural divide makes a lot of sense and is probably true for almost every state these days.
 
Love some of the stuff here...a good bit to ponder.

Sanford (1961-1965)--Dan K. Moore (1965-1969)--Bob Scott (1969-1973)--Jim Holshouser (1973-1977)--Jim Hunt (1977-1985)--James Martin (1985-1993)--Jim Hunt (1993-2001)--Mike Easley (2001-2009)--Beverly Perdue (2009-2013)--Pat McCrory (2013-1017)--Roy Cooper (2017-2025)--Josh Stein (2025-...)

Holshouser upset the apple cart in 1973, riding in on Nixonism and becoming the first Republican governor of the state since the Fusionist term of Daniel Russell (1897-1901). Interestingly, both he and Martin (the other Republican before McCrory) were Davidson grads.

School affiliation is interesting: Sanford was a Carolina man UG and Law, Dan K. Moore was too. Bob Scott was a farmer, NCSU grad and son of Governor Kerr Scott. Holshouser was a lifetime Western NC Republican who went to Davidson and UNC Law. Hunt was NCSU and Carolina Law with deep Eastern NC roots. Martin was a Republican, PHD chemist born in Georgia and Davidson UG/Princeton doctorate who was rooted in the Charlotte area. Hunt comes back around for another two terms then from 1993-2001. Easley was a Rocky Mount Democrat with a UNC UG and a NC Central Law degree. Bev Perdue is a big outlier -- born in Virginia, U of Kentucky UG, Florida PHD. McCrory was born in Ohio but came to NC (Greensboro) and graduated from Catawba College -- he's another gift from Charlotte (mayor) as well as dook power to the state. Cooper (Nashville, Eastern NC) is a full-on Carolina man. Stein was born in Washington DC but moved to Chapel Hill when very young (Chapel Hill Post Office Kid) and earned his undergrad at Dartmouth and law degree at Harvard. Like Jim Hunt (Nepal), Stein lived and worked overseas (Zimbabwe). There are all sorts of other connections abundant throughout that list and we've not even explored the senate. Once upon a time who was governor said a lot about who is in control of the state, certainly up until Hunt's second term (he could challenge Helms, especially after the senator grew more into his national and international positioning). Since then it is tougher, though Roy Cooper, albeit while losing power to the Pope/Berger machine mentioned by @Mulberry Heel , did seem to put some Carolina back into the mix. That said, it is pretty clear that "Carolina Men" are more out of the halls of power than "ever" before -- simply looking at the make-up of the Board of Governors shows that. To what degree demographic change is accountable needs to be investigated.
 
donbosco said:
Love some of the stuff here...a good bit to ponder.

Sanford (1961-1965)--Dan K. Moore (1965-1969)--Bob Scott (1969-1973)--Jim Holshouser (1973-1977)--Jim Hunt (1977-1985)--James Martin (1985-1993)--Jim Hunt (1993-2001)--Mike Easley (2001-2009)--Beverly Perdue (2009-2013)--Pat McCrory (2013-1017)--Roy Cooper (2017-2025)--Josh Stein (2025-...)

Holshouser upset the apple cart in 1973, riding in on Nixonism and becoming the first Republican governor of the state since the Fusionist term of Daniel Russell (1897-1901). Interestingly, both he and Martin (the other Republican before McCrory) were Davidson grads.

School affiliation is interesting: Sanford was a Carolina man UG and Law, Dan K. Moore was too. Bob Scott was a farmer, NCSU grad and son of Governor Kerr Scott. Holshouser was a lifetime Western NC Republican who went to Davidson and UNC Law. Hunt was NCSU and Carolina Law with deep Eastern NC roots. Martin was a Republican, PHD chemist born in Georgia and Davidson UG/Princeton doctorate who was rooted in the Charlotte area. Hunt comes back around for another two terms then from 1993-2001. Easley was a Rocky Mount Democrat with a UNC UG and a NC Central Law degree. Bev Perdue is a big outlier -- born in Virginia, U of Kentucky UG, Florida PHD. McCrory was born in Ohio but came to NC (Greensboro) and graduated from Catawba College -- he's another gift from Charlotte (mayor) as well as dook power to the state. Cooper (Nashville, Eastern NC) is a full-on Carolina man. Stein was born in Washington DC but moved to Chapel Hill when very young (Chapel Hill Post Office Kid) and earned his undergrad at Dartmouth and law degree at Harvard. Like Jim Hunt (Nepal), Stein lived and worked overseas (Zimbabwe). There are all sorts of other connections abundant throughout that list and we've not even explored the senate. Once upon a time who was governor said a lot about who is in control of the state, certainly up until Hunt's second term (he could challenge Helms, especially after the senator grew more into his national and international positioning). Since then it is tougher, though Roy Cooper, albeit while losing power to the Pope/Berger machine mentioned by @Mulberry Heel , did seem to put some Carolina back into the mix. That said, it is pretty clear that "Carolina Men" are more out of the halls of power than "ever" before -- simply looking at the make-up of the Board of Governors shows that. To what degree demographic change is accountable needs to be investigated.
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Great points
Carolina is in the Executive Mansion and the AG office-that is about it . But those are two good ones to have
 
mpaer said:
Great points
Carolina is in the Executive Mansion and the AG office-that is about it . But those are two good ones to have
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Chapel Hill High is in the Mansion and the AG office to be even more specific. Imagine the influence peddled by Freddy Kiger!

The NC Council of State is, I believe, the MOST ELECTED in the region (rather than appointed as can be the case with other states): Check them out by scrolling down: North Carolina Council of State - Wikipedia

it is also quite bi-partisan in that of the ten offices held they are split 5-5 between the two parties (though Dems hold the top three at this time).
 
Another question related to the Council of State character -- did Hunt's push (or putsch for some) for more power for the governor (and extended terms) turn a relatively bipartisan system into the polarized one we see today?

Or did Hunt just see that coming and jump ahead of it?

Or was Hunt an actual harbinger of that change in national politics, after all, that 1984 Hunt/Helms senatorial race really set the stage in a number of ways for what we know these days as "normal" politics.
 
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I hope folks respond to donbosco's latest But I wanted to add another "thread" for folks to consider talking about
The Hunt coalition was genius and powerful. A part of the enticement was patronage-you donate and you or your children/wife get a nice job-better than your last job. Of course then you are supposed to hire people under you that are "good Democrats"-Govs office would let you know whom to hire
My point here is to also to point out there were basically two Democratic "pools" of patronage-coordinated by one office, but rather distinct pools
Black and White
There were often Designated Black Patronage Agencies , for ex DENR under Howard Lee and later Corrections .
I guess it was how Hunt satisfied his Black folks and ENC Dixiecrats at the same time . Kind of Separate but equal
Now when the Pubs and Dems started taking turns a bit there was also a real undercurrent of moving ,maybe demoting, but not firing or even cutting pay much of mid level holdovers from the previous party . It was kind of fascinating and "healthy " Because you knew one day the "other party " would be in power and you did not want "your" folks to all be fired..
When Mccory came in he kind of changed all this cooperation stuff-but in a "kind " way. He spent hundreds of millions of dollars "buying out" folks he was sure were Democrats I got 6-8 mths pay (I forget ) to retire..funny thing was I never once donated or Volunteered for Dem elections, the nature of my job was such that I felt that was unethical . Cool , I got paid and I had plenty of years anyway Th press did a crap job on this-like did not cover it
 
This is really interesting. I didn't really think North Carolina had machine politics. I thought these elections were decided on the issues maybe with a little gerrymandering thrown in. So naive.

So what is the current state of NC politics? Was Cooper part of some machine? I like him but it's not like he was some charismatic political Superstar. Not sure how he kept getting elected other than being competent as opposed to the last three or four. Where does Tillis fall in all this? Where does Stein?
 
gtyellowjacket said:
This is really interesting. I didn't really think North Carolina had machine politics. I thought these elections were decided on the issues maybe with a little gerrymandering thrown in. So naive.

So what is the current state of NC politics? Was Cooper part of some machine? I like him but it's not like he was some charismatic political Superstar. Not sure how he kept getting elected other than being competent as opposed to the last three or four. Where does Tillis fall in all this? Where does Stein?
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Cooper had the backing of the party
But you can't say its a machine if he never had the legislature We all hope Coop will run against Tillis for senate 26 Cooper was/is agreat candidate-but the guys he beat were bad and the last go around a joke. Stein is just getting started with alegislature that does want to give him anything-in 8 years he might accomplish one thing-like Cooper did with Medicaid
There are aspects of certain City politics that are machine like-but not the biggest city-and the rest are too small to be particularly exciting
 
mpaer said:
I hope folks respond to donbosco's latest But I wanted to add another "thread" for folks to consider talking about
The Hunt coalition was genius and powerful. A part of the enticement was patronage-you donate and you or your children/wife get a nice job-better than your last job. Of course then you are supposed to hire people under you that are "good Democrats"-Govs office would let you know whom to hire
My point here is to also to point out there were basically two Democratic "pools" of patronage-coordinated by one office, but rather distinct pools
Black and White
There were often Designated Black Patronage Agencies , for ex DENR under Howard Lee and later Corrections .
I guess it was how Hunt satisfied his Black folks and ENC Dixiecrats at the same time . Kind of Separate but equal
Now when the Pubs and Dems started taking turns a bit there was also a real undercurrent of moving ,maybe demoting, but not firing or even cutting pay much of mid level holdovers from the previous party . It was kind of fascinating and "healthy " Because you knew one day the "other party " would be in power and you did not want "your" folks to all be fired..
When Mccory came in he kind of changed all this cooperation stuff-but in a "kind " way. He spent hundreds of millions of dollars "buying out" folks he was sure were Democrats I got 6-8 mths pay (I forget ) to retire..funny thing was I never once donated or Volunteered for Dem elections, the nature of my job was such that I felt that was unethical . Cool , I got paid and I had plenty of years anyway Th press did a crap job on this-like did not cover it
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The Hunt Machine was unto itself and Jim Hunt.

It worked for Hunt at the state level (lots of state-level patronage; not as much federal-level patronage); but, the Hunt politicos never did figure out Jesse Helms.

The ENC and WNC and Piedmont Dixiecrats were all-in on Jesse; many (most?) liked Hunt as Governor. They LOVED Jesse.

They LOVED Senator No.
 
donbosco said:
Helms was national - even slightly international.

The hypocrisy was enormous.
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Helms was international AND national.

In ‘83, ‘84, and ‘85, I remember Europeans asking me to explain Ronald Reagan. These were random rides from London to way the fuck out there on the train…..Cornwall, Scotland, Wales…….Cycling across RURAL as hell France and Belgium…..what shocked me after being asked to explain Ronald Reagan…….the same people asked me to explain Jesse Helms. Average Joe Europeans knew who Jesse Helms is.
 
From 2016, archived and accessible.

"North Carolina is no longer classified as a democracy.

In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone. If it were a nation state, North Carolina would rank right in the middle of the global league table – a deeply flawed, partly free democracy that is only slightly ahead of the failed democracies that constitute much of the developing world. Indeed, North Carolina does so poorly on the measures of legal framework and voter registration, that on those indicators we rank alongside Iran and Venezuela. When it comes to the integrity of the voting district boundaries no country has ever received as low a score as the 7/100 North Carolina received. North Carolina is not only the worst state in the USA for unfair districting but the worst entity in the world ever analyzed by the Electoral Integrity Project. That North Carolina can no longer call its elections democratic is shocking enough, but our democratic decline goes beyond what happens at election time. The most respected measures of democracy — Freedom House, POLITY and the Varieties of Democracy project — all assess the degree to which the exercise of power depends on the will of the people: That is, governance is not arbitrary, it follows established rules and is based on popular legitimacy."

More at the link...

 
donbosco said:
From 2016, archived and accessible.

"North Carolina is no longer classified as a democracy.

In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone. If it were a nation state, North Carolina would rank right in the middle of the global league table – a deeply flawed, partly free democracy that is only slightly ahead of the failed democracies that constitute much of the developing world. Indeed, North Carolina does so poorly on the measures of legal framework and voter registration, that on those indicators we rank alongside Iran and Venezuela. When it comes to the integrity of the voting district boundaries no country has ever received as low a score as the 7/100 North Carolina received. North Carolina is not only the worst state in the USA for unfair districting but the worst entity in the world ever analyzed by the Electoral Integrity Project. That North Carolina can no longer call its elections democratic is shocking enough, but our democratic decline goes beyond what happens at election time. The most respected measures of democracy — Freedom House, POLITY and the Varieties of Democracy project — all assess the degree to which the exercise of power depends on the will of the people: That is, governance is not arbitrary, it follows established rules and is based on popular legitimacy."

More at the link...

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I've read a number of articles which state that due to extreme gerrymandering NC Democrats would need to win at least 60% of the statewide vote to have a chance to win even a bare majority in either house of the legislature, which of course is a ridiculously high number and will never happen. So we basically have a permanent GOP majority in the state legislature. The only way to change it would be to elect a Democratic-majority State Supreme Court which might force the legislature to redraw more competitive districts, which is precisely why they're moving heaven and earth to give Griffin that Supreme Court seat. That would give the GOP a 6-1 majority on the court and would thus make it even more difficult for NC Democrats to regain a majority on the court, at least in time for the next round of redistricting after the 2030 Census.
 
Interesting quotation by O. Max Gardner, Governor from 1929 to 1933:
“I am by nature an optimist and at heart a progressive, yet I have been forced into the position of taking my place in the minds of a great many of my dearest friends as a reactionary… Although I am by instinct bullish, I caught the State in a bearish market.” ~ Joseph L. Morrison, Governor O. Max Gardner: A Power in North Carolina and New Deal Washington (Chapel Hill, NC; University of North Carolina Press, 1971), p. 62.

He is said to typify the "Progressive Plutocrat," a term that V.O. Key gave to those who had ruled North Carolina in the first half of the 20th century (Key also noted that while these folks were allied with business they were also all lawyers).




 
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