On the OU philosophy paper scandal

ChapelHillSooner

ChapelHillSooner

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I am not sure what thread we initially discussed this.

I am appalled that OU fired the TA. IMO they are doing real harm to the academic reputation of a university that I have a degree from. While OU is clearly not UNC, they have moved up to about #110 in US News rankings which is respectable.

I have a master’s degree from another university and have decided to remove any reference to my undergrad degree from my resume / bio. I hate it because my master’s in in CS and I think my EE degree does have a little cache.

I hope they fall hard. I predict that they will have real problems finding graduate students for their psychology department, especially ones that are willing to be TA’s.

This is something I have been pushing. It is probably unrealistic but I would love to see it happen. I have pushed for student to enroll in one extra class next semester - if it isn’t too late. Stay in the course long enough enough to have an assignment or test and respond to any question with Jesus nonsense. Wait for a grade then drop the course. Make sure the media is aware or this.

I think that that would get the attention of the university administration. It would tell them a few things:

1. If your point was to try to make this go away, you failed.
2. You have opened Pandora’s box and now you will deal with the consequences.
3. TPUSA is not the only group or organization that will battle you on this issue.

My point is that groups like TPUSA are fighting a cultural war and people need to stand up against it.

A little legal civil disobedience would be the perfect way to fight it.

All that said, I actually don’t know when tuition is due and it would be asking a lot for students to forfeit tuition for this cause. IIRC it wasn’t due on day 1 when I was in school but that was 30+ years ago so I don’t really remember.

Thoughts on that idea and in general? Am I overreacting?

Seems the meat of the issue is that everyone agrees the student should have gotten a failing grade but the issue is the zero vs some other failing grade. That seems pretty arbitrary and not something fireable. IMO the paper absolutely deserves a zero.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
I am not sure what thread we initially discussed this.

I am appalled that OU fired the TA. IMO they are doing real harm to the academic reputation of a university that I have a degree from. While OU is clearly not UNC, they have moved up to about #110 in US News rankings which is respectable.

I have a master’s degree from another university and have decided to remove any reference to my undergrad degree from my resume / bio. I hate it because my master’s in in CS and I think my EE degree does have a little cache.

I hope they fall hard. I predict that they will have real problems finding graduate students for their psychology department, especially ones that are willing to be TA’s.

This is something I have been pushing. It is probably unrealistic but I would love to see it happen. I have pushed for student to enroll in one extra class next semester - if it isn’t too late. Stay in the course long enough enough to have an assignment or test and respond to any question with Jesus nonsense. Wait for a grade then drop the course. Make sure the media is aware or this.

I think that that would get the attention of the university administration. It would tell them a few things:

1. If your point was to try to make this go away, you failed.
2. You have opened Pandora’s box and now you will deal with the consequences.
3. TPUSA is not the only group or organization that will battle you on this issue.

My point is that groups like TPUSA are fighting a cultural war and people need to stand up against it.

A little legal civil disobedience would be the perfect way to fight it.

All that said, I actually don’t know when tuition is due and it would be asking a lot for students to forfeit tuition for this cause. IIRC it wasn’t due on day 1 when I was in school but that was 30+ years ago so I don’t really remember.

Thoughts on that idea and in general? Am I overreacting?

Seems the meat of the issue is that everyone agrees the student should have gotten a failing grade but the issue is the zero vs some other failing grade. That seems pretty arbitrary and not something fireable. IMO the paper absolutely deserves a zero.
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This was a totally foreseeable response from OU. I think we discussed it in the other thread. I suggested that OU wouldn’t stand up for the trans TA and would instead “invite” her to pursue options at other universities, which is essentially what’s happening.

I’ve been appalled by OU’s handling of the situation since the beginning—but it’s totally unsurprising given the political climate in the state.

At some point—whether at OU or UNC or a coordinated student effort among several highly-ranked state universities that are currently kowtowing to MAGA culture—there needs to be mass protests of some kind.
 
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EyeballKid said:
This was a totally foreseeable response from OU. I think we discussed it in the other thread. I suggested that OU wouldn’t stand up for the trans TA and would instead “invite” her to pursue options at other universities, which is essentially what’s happening.

I’ve been appalled by OU’s handling of the situation since the beginning—but it’s totally unsurprising given the political climate in the state.

At some point—whether at OU or UNC or a coordinated student effort among several highly-ranked state universities that are currently kowtowing to MAGA culture—there needs to be mass protests of some kind.
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Yes, and I was wrong thinking that they would not fire the TA.

I argued then that they are just taking the path of least resistance but firing the TA is in no way defensible.
 
The thing that gets me is that 30 years ago nobody would have thought twice about the zero. Nobody would have given a damn about some analysis of the rubric and the validity of a zero score. People would have simply said that the essay is a piece of crap and it deserved whatever the teacher gave it.
 
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EyeballKid said:
This was a totally foreseeable response from OU. I think we discussed it in the other thread. I suggested that OU wouldn’t stand up for the trans TA and would instead “invite” her to pursue options at other universities, which is essentially what’s happening.

I’ve been appalled by OU’s handling of the situation since the beginning—but it’s totally unsurprising given the political climate in the state.

At some point—whether at OU or UNC or a coordinated student effort among several highly-ranked state universities that are currently kowtowing to MAGA culture—there needs to be mass protests of some kind.
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Agree. These assaults aren't going to stop, they're only going to get worse as long as these states have Republican-dominated state governments (in NC the state legislature has seized nearly all of the power over the state university system from the governor and executive branch, which now has almost no control over the UNC system schools). Republicans have long seen university faculties as one of their mortal enemies (especially the humanities) and are determined to radically reform and change universities that they control to something more to their liking. Damaging the academic rating or reputation of a university doesn't matter to them, as they're already working on forming their own right-wing accreditation agencies. These are dark, dark days for American education.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
The thing that gets me is that 30 years ago nobody would have thought twice about the zero. Nobody would have given a damn about some analysis of the rubric and the validity of a zero score. People would have simply said that the as a piece of crap and it deserved whatever the teacher gave it.
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True, but with social media and vindictive right-wing "gotcha" culture any professor or TA or instructor in a red state is now vulnerable and a possible target. Any student (or parent of a student) can now become a right-wing internet warrior and celebrity by loudly crying foul on social media over perceived discrimination, even where none existed, as in this case. The truth and accuracy of their claim doesn't matter, all that matters is getting noticed by Fox and other right-wing outlets and getting your name in the news for grifting and attention-grabbing purposes. And in getting the unfortunate professor or TA fired or at least publicly reprimanded, of course.
 
This story absolutely makes my blood boil so I’ve kept my updates on it at arm’s-length.

In regard to firing the TA, if they had given the student say a 10% or whatever, would they have been let go? That part being inconsequential of course..
 
CarolinaFever said:
I received a 0 on an assignment in a writing for radio and TV class because I misspelled one word. That was one of the professor's rules. Noone complained about that.
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I had a class where I scored a 13 on a test. The worst part was that I walked out of the test really confident.

On probably the most in depth question, I had the exact answer that the professor had but because the guy was so particular and unreasonable, I decided I better write the equation with a common denominator. As I was going through terms I mixed a lowercase a with an uppercase A. I got zero points. When I pointed that out the professor said, “I don’t believe you but I will give you five points.” Pissed me the f’ off. I wanted to say, “You had the opportunity to photocopy the test before handing it back to me. If I altered the test then call me out for academic dishonesty but otherwise you have no right to call me a liar.” I, of course, didn’t say that. Although in retrospect there was a chance that the professor wanted me to fight harder for more points. I was scared shitless of the guy and would never argue with him.

I didn’t, however, try to get the professor fired.
 
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Rock said:
This story absolutely makes my blood boil so I’ve kept my updates on it at arm’s-length.

In regard to firing the TA, if they had given the student say a 10% or whatever, would they have been let go? That part being inconsequential of course..
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That is one insane part about this. The cultural warriors are reduced to arguing about a zero versus giving a few points. They have turned an argument about a few points in a failing grade into some type of culture war.
 
Once on a paper in RMPTV/Eng 42 (film criticism) I got an "F" on a paper with the comment "I hope you were drunk or otherwise inebriated while writing this, otherwise there is no excuse." I didn't complain because I knew the prof was absolutely correct. The paper was comparing and contrasting "2001: A Space Odessey" with "Fantastia" to demonstate differences between movies where the image suggests the sound verses where the sound suggests the images. I thought it was was wonderful Idea until I finished the paper realized it was complete nonsense. But it didn't have time for a re-write or research a new topic, so I just handed it in. I deserved the "F".
 
The ways that a teacher of today must comport themself are very different from what they were even a decade ago. Language use must be precise and the bigger picture must always be weighed out carefully. The entire scheme of things can be likened to a war rather than a battle in which the maxim "“He who fights and runs away may live to fight another day” is a motto to live by. If one's greatest goal is to educate and enlighten, introduce ideas and spur critical thinking, to the greatest number of the reachable then skirmishes need to be carefully calculated so as not to be eliminated from the overall conflict gaining nothing.

At least that is one way of approaching it.
 
A friend of mine wrote the following...

"The instructor asked students to read and comment on the attached essay (not discussed or addressed in the NYT article):
https://kfor.com/.../sites/3/2025/12/jewell-brown-2014.pdf

Clearly (to read it see NYT article directly below) the essay by the student utterly failed to address the assigned reading (kids most popular are those whose gender behavior is most “typical”. The assigned reading provides scores of data and empirical evidence of a community of some 100 middle school teenagers)

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/23/...lFgSQ-nUMA96oWQUk&brid=O0S_h8QYQbQqV4g1JqiWug

The essay by the OU student is an opinion on theology or religion, not an argument on developmental psychology, the subject of the class.
The student is entitled to whatever the fuck she wants to believe, but she is not entitled to offer algebra answers of her liking. In algebra there are strict rules to follow. There is no freedom of speech in algebra.

There are rules to disciplines and arguments.

College is not about opinions, but the ability to articulate arguments within disciplines(logical structure to reasoning, enough empirical evidence, and ability to withstand peer review ).

If one wants biblical opinions on gender, one goes to a bar or Sunday biblical school or TickToc or Facebook. One doesn’t take a university class on psychological development.

I would have personally given this student an F-

The student is clearly smart; and the essay she wrote is even interesting. But the student utterly missed the assignment and the point of going to college.

There are good and bad arguments, and grades are “objective” ways of assessing the students’s skills to develop arguments. Coherence in arguments have nothing to do with freedom of speech!

By sanctioning the grader, Oklahoma has become a social media outlet that judges freedom of speech, not a university. There is no freedom of speech in peer review! please grow up!

And the coverage of the NYT of this scandal is dismal."
 
As long as we are talking about our own personal bad grades, OUSooner, I think you will especially appreciate this if your "EE" means electrical engineering.

I was a Mech Engr major. Back in the day, we took a DC circuits class and an AC circuits class. Now be aware that this is pretty basic stuff, so the DC class wasn't very hard. I got an A. In fact, I did pretty well in school; I and my friend group usually got A's. So in AC circuits, before our TA handed back our first test, he wrote the grades the board (not names) so we would have an idea of the distribution. When he got to the bottom, I remember thinking, "Damn, I'd hate to be the guy with the 25." Well, guess who got the 25? With only four tests for the year, I knew I would have to be lucky to get a B, so I went to his office and asked if he could schedule the next test before drop/add. Instead, he scheduled it the day after, so I punted. Everyone in my friend group kept the class, but the final dropped their class grade by a full letter, and these were guys who finished school with 3.7-3.8 GPAs. (Clemson did not award fractional points - an A-, A, and A+ were all 4 points.) Anyway, next semester I got a different TA for AC. His first comment was, "OK, I know you guys are Mechanical Engineering majors, so this won't be too bad." What a great guy!

I still don't believe all of that AC stuff. I think it is some kind of weird magic.
 
One aspect not mentioned much is the fact that many high schools do not give 0s even for no submission.

Many student expect to receive a 60 even if they didn’t turn anything in!

Getting an actual 0 when you turned something in feels impossible and shocking to these students.

I had a student look into my eyes like I had kicked his cat and muttered “Man, those zeros” shaking his head slowly walking away after submitting a quiz grade recently.
 
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8992Tiger said:
As long as we are talking about our own personal bad grades, OUSooner, I think you will especially appreciate this if your "EE" means electrical engineering.

I was a Mech Engr major. Back in the day, we took a DC circuits class and an AC circuits class. Now be aware that this is pretty basic stuff, so the DC class wasn't very hard. I got an A. In fact, I did pretty well in school; I and my friend group usually got A's. So in AC circuits, before our TA handed back our first test, he wrote the grades the board (not names) so we would have an idea of the distribution. When he got to the bottom, I remember thinking, "Damn, I'd hate to be the guy with the 25." Well, guess who got the 25? With only four tests for the year, I knew I would have to be lucky to get a B, so I went to his office and asked if he could schedule the next test before drop/add. Instead, he scheduled it the day after, so I punted. Everyone in my friend group kept the class, but the final dropped their class grade by a full letter, and these were guys who finished school with 3.7-3.8 GPAs. (Clemson did not award fractional points - an A-, A, and A+ were all 4 points.) Anyway, next semester I got a different TA for AC. His first comment was, "OK, I know you guys are Mechanical Engineering majors, so this won't be too bad." What a great guy!

I still don't believe all of that AC stuff. I think it is some kind of weird magic.
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My bad grade came in "guns and boats" aka Military History 77 which was considered a slide course. Your grade was based upon 3 areas:

40% midterm exam and I received a B- grade which I considered unfair
20% seminar and I received a B which I considered a fair grade
40% final exam and I received an F which mystified me but I rationalized that I was tripping on LSD the night before the exam :cool:

so 60% of my grade was a B and 40% of my grade was an F . I expected to receive a C for my final grade but I flunked the class with an F as my final grade.

I was the victim of fuzzy math :mad:
 
Blurb said:
One aspect not mentioned much is the fact that many high schools do not give 0s even for no submission.

Many student expect to receive a 60 even if they didn’t turn anything in!

Getting an actual 0 when you turned something in feels impossible and shocking to these students.

I had a student look into my eyes like I had kicked his cat and muttered “Man, those zero” shaking his head slowly walking away after submitting a quiz grade recently.
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It depends on the class and the potential to make up for the zero.

I believe ones grade should reflect their overall grasp of the material.

I recieved a zero on a test in college, in the hardest class I've ever taken. We had to write sudo code to allocate memory in C and a garbage collector to clear the memory after the primary function of the sudo code. There are functions in C to do this, but we couldn't use them. After pages of sudo code, I don't know if I forgot the instructions or was running out of time, but I used realloc() at the end. I recieved a zero for using that function, nothing else was graded.

I understood because it was clear we shouldn't use the functions, but I asked the TA about the rest of the test, he said everything was good and had I simply not completed the last part I would have passed. In that class I got a D and had to take the class over. Had I got a 50 on that test I would have gotten a C. I still feel that the zero was too punitive and that I learned more than my grade reflected. When I took the class over I got a B, because the class was just hard. 😁

So i don't believe having to retake the class helped me, and because I wasn't a full time student it literally added a semester to my college experience.
 
Blurb said:
One aspect not mentioned much is the fact that many high schools do not give 0s even for no submission.

Many student expect to receive a 60 even if they didn’t turn anything in!

Getting an actual 0 when you turned something in feels impossible and shocking to these students.

I had a student look into my eyes like I had kicked his cat and muttered “Man, those zero” shaking his head slowly walking away after submitting a quiz grade recently.
Click to expand...
For no submission one should get a zero.

If one does some work I can understand not getting a zero, no matter how bad.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Agree. These assaults aren't going to stop, they're only going to get worse as long as these states have Republican-dominated state governments (in NC the state legislature has seized nearly all of the power over the state university system from the governor and executive branch, which now has almost no control over the UNC system schools). Republicans have long seen university faculties as one of their mortal enemies (especially the humanities) and are determined to radically reform and change universities that they control to something more to their liking. Damaging the academic rating or reputation of a university doesn't matter to them, as they're already working on forming their own right-wing accreditation agencies. These are dark, dark days for American education.
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I have completely stopped donating to my undergrad institution for two reasons:

1. South Carolina has consistently reaffirmed that they would rather have low taxes than properly fund education. Why should I, a Marylander, subsidize this decision?
2. The GOP nut jobs in SC have increasingly pressured the university to bow to its will and I'm worried the new university president hire will be one of their anointed cronies.

I am by no means a major donor and I won't be missed but I'm happy to redirect that money to my graduate alma mater Johns Hopkins where being a private school and being in Maryland largely protects the university from the crazies.
 
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