Psychology, politics and extremism

It is worth noting that, since 1900, few tyrannies have been ended peacefully, and of those, the vast majority occurred in two discrete movements: the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, and the Arab Spring.

It's almost as if the way to achieve lasting peace is through the rule of law and a constitution that makes the tyranny impossible and violent overthrows unnecessary. You know, things like checks and balances, as opposed to unitary executive power.
 
1. I am certain that I would confound their study. They'd probably exclude me because of autism, but if they did include me, they are going to get a lot of noise in their data because I am very much sui generis.

2. Imagine if there were some people who didn't want to pay taxes. They don't fill out their tax forms, and when the government comes to enforce the lien on their property (having acquired the lien in court for non-payment) they open fire on the agents from entrenched positions. That seems pretty fucking extreme.

Now imagine a different set of people who didn't want to pay taxes. Instead of just not paying them, they sneaked onto a boat and dumped the entire contents of the boat into the ocean. Then they declared that they are no longer subject to any of the laws that apply to them, that in fact they aren't even part of the country any more, and then they took up arms against the government and killed thousands and thousands of people in their "war for independence." These guys make those other ones described above look like cautious amateurs. Pretty fucking extreme, yes?

Imagine a third set of people. These people thought slavery was an abomination and must be defeated for the sake of basic humanity and as a matter of grace from a God who decreed slavery to be an ultimate sin. The slavers were like, "eh, you do your thing, we'll do our thing. If you don't like slavery, don't do it." But the extremists were not interested in that deal. So they went to war. Hundreds of thousands of people died in this revolutionary campaign, which was founded on a contestable and contested philosophical premise that all men are created equal -- which, by the way, happened to be written by an unabashed proponent of political violence who thought it not merely acceptable but good (or I guess "not bad").

Pretty fucking extreme, no?

3. You see the problem here? I think maybe even you can get it.
you bring up some valid points here.

i'm also curious as to what constitutes "extreme." on both sides of the political spectrum.
 
See Today at 6:49 AM . Someone took the bait and away we went. At 6:56 AM poster "lawtig02" noted what had happened. As to your comments... you are very articulate. That's it from me.
I don't think that was bait. I think that comment gets to the nub of the issue, perhaps the most important political question of our new age. How to respond to creeping fascism/authoritarianism.

There's at least three positions alive on this board -- it's a non-exhaustive list.

1. Eh, y'all overreacting, and all will be well in the end.
2. The only way to protect liberal democracy is to live out its precepts, and that the public good cannot be achieved in a cycle of tit-for-tat.
3. Once the rule of law dies, then the gloves are off. Rule of law must be restored for a society to be non-tyrannical. Since the rule of law is gone, so too is the utility of adhering to the norms it supported, until it is restored. It will not be restored by incrementalism or moderation.

I'm in camp 3. The rule of law has been tenuous for a while under this Supreme Court, but they killed it this summer. Their only principle is Trump Always Wins. And since they seem to be going to any absurd lengths to do that -- including harshly criticizing district judges for not reading their minds and interpreting non-decisions -- we do not live in under the rule of law. End of story.

There are others in camp 2, and I respect their positions. I fear that they are scared of position 3, and so they tell optimistic fables of how our old system can be restored without radical action. They criticize 3 but do little to bolster their own affirmative case. Also, it's not as if the old system was all that great. Going back to the days of Shelby County and Citizens United is, I suppose, better than the days of Trump v. US and stays on all decisions with outcomes 6 people don't like, but it isn't worth fighting for. We need to set our sights higher.

This thread offers a perspective. I personally think the research is bogus, although I couldn't read the articles behind a paywall so I can't assess the experimental procedure exactly. I also believe that personality traits, and in fact the sorting of our political system by personality traits, is a huge aspect of the predicament we find ourselves in. MAGAs support Trump because they have authoritarian personalities, and support authority in all facets of their lives. They are content to submit to a noble so long as they are given a small fiefdom -- authority over their families, over sexual expression, racial hierarchies. So it would be odd for me to say, "nah, personality is never relevant." In fact, as I noted, I've long thought personality traits among extremists are quite similar.
 
1. I am certain that I would confound their study. They'd probably exclude me because of autism, but if they did include me, they are going to get a lot of noise in their data because I am very much sui generis.

2. Imagine if there were some people who didn't want to pay taxes. They don't fill out their tax forms, and when the government comes to enforce the lien on their property (having acquired the lien in court for non-payment) they open fire on the agents from entrenched positions. That seems pretty fucking extreme.

Now imagine a different set of people who didn't want to pay taxes. Instead of just not paying them, they sneaked onto a boat and dumped the entire contents of the boat into the ocean. Then they declared that they are no longer subject to any of the laws that apply to them, that in fact they aren't even part of the country any more, and then they took up arms against the government and killed thousands and thousands of people in their "war for independence." These guys make those other ones described above look like cautious amateurs. Pretty fucking extreme, yes?

Imagine a third set of people. These people thought slavery was an abomination and must be defeated for the sake of basic humanity and as a matter of grace from a God who decreed slavery to be an ultimate sin. The slavers were like, "eh, you do your thing, we'll do our thing. If you don't like slavery, don't do it." But the extremists were not interested in that deal. So they went to war. Hundreds of thousands of people died in this revolutionary campaign, which was founded on a contestable and contested philosophical premise that all men are created equal -- which, by the way, happened to be written by an unabashed proponent of political violence who thought it not merely acceptable but good (or I guess "not bad").

Pretty fucking extreme, no?

3. You see the problem here? I think maybe even you can get it.
Sure, but you’re talking about people that likely had low self-esteem
 
Well...there went another thread. Hijacked.
Pretty much. I got posts 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, and 22. There may have been some interesting responses to trolls in there that I didn't see, but basically, it all got wiped out by Super Ignore. Again, if you want ALL of us to see your posts, don't directly quote a troll.
 
Pretty much. I got posts 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, and 22. There may have been some interesting responses to trolls in there that I didn't see, but basically, it all got wiped out by Super Ignore. Again, if you want ALL of us to see your posts, don't directly quote a troll.
When I have someone on super ignore, anyone quoting the super ignored post is not ignored, but the contents of the post are hidden. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
 
I don't think that was bait. I think that comment gets to the nub of the issue, perhaps the most important political question of our new age. How to respond to creeping fascism/authoritarianism.

There's at least three positions alive on this board -- it's a non-exhaustive list.

1. Eh, y'all overreacting, and all will be well in the end.
2. The only way to protect liberal democracy is to live out its precepts, and that the public good cannot be achieved in a cycle of tit-for-tat.
3. Once the rule of law dies, then the gloves are off. Rule of law must be restored for a society to be non-tyrannical. Since the rule of law is gone, so too is the utility of adhering to the norms it supported, until it is restored. It will not be restored by incrementalism or moderation.

I'm in camp 3. The rule of law has been tenuous for a while under this Supreme Court, but they killed it this summer. Their only principle is Trump Always Wins. And since they seem to be going to any absurd lengths to do that -- including harshly criticizing district judges for not reading their minds and interpreting non-decisions -- we do not live in under the rule of law. End of story.

There are others in camp 2, and I respect their positions. I fear that they are scared of position 3, and so they tell optimistic fables of how our old system can be restored without radical action. They criticize 3 but do little to bolster their own affirmative case. Also, it's not as if the old system was all that great. Going back to the days of Shelby County and Citizens United is, I suppose, better than the days of Trump v. US and stays on all decisions with outcomes 6 people don't like, but it isn't worth fighting for. We need to set our sights higher.

This thread offers a perspective. I personally think the research is bogus, although I couldn't read the articles behind a paywall so I can't assess the experimental procedure exactly. I also believe that personality traits, and in fact the sorting of our political system by personality traits, is a huge aspect of the predicament we find ourselves in. MAGAs support Trump because they have authoritarian personalities, and support authority in all facets of their lives. They are content to submit to a noble so long as they are given a small fiefdom -- authority over their families, over sexual expression, racial hierarchies. So it would be odd for me to say, "nah, personality is never relevant." In fact, as I noted, I've long thought personality traits among extremists are quite similar.
my dude, it was definitely bait from gt specifically intended for you. he took personal shots right at you.

your responses have included a lot of thoughtful stuff but he definitely intended to lure you in particular into a pissing match with that comment that was clearly about you.
 
my dude, it was definitely bait from gt specifically intended for you. he took personal shots right at you.

your responses have included a lot of thoughtful stuff but he definitely intended to lure you in particular into a pissing match with that comment that was clearly about you.
I'm aware of that. But If I can't defend my position against that shit, then I deserve to be called out. So I did. I mean, my views on this topic are controversial. If we can't talk about controversial things, then what's the point?
 

Cognitive and behavioral radicalization: A systematic review of the putative risk and protective factors​



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“… Some of the factors most central to risk assessment and counter‐radicalization interventions actually have relatively small relationships with radicalization outcomes. Conversely, factors known to be associated with ordinary criminal outcomes have the largest relationships.…”
 
How social exclusion makes radicalism flourish: A review of empirical evidence


“… Because an important part of radicalization is the desire to reach a specific goal, radical groups can be differentiated according to their main concerns: Extreme right-wing groups (e.g., the Ku Klux Klan) want to safe-guard the high status position of the “White race”; extreme left-wing groups (e.g., the Red Army Faction) want a more equal distribution of wealth; religiously motivated groups (e.g., the Islamic State) want to impose a strict interpretation of their religion; nationalistic groups (e.g., the Irish Republican Army) want to secure a territory; and single issue groups (e.g., the Animal Liberation Front) want one particular goal (e.g., animal protection) to be achieved (Doosje et al., 2016). Members of these radical groups differ in some ways. For example, women are more involved in left-wing groups than in right-wing and religiously motivated groups, whereas the latter show more signs of mental illness (Chermak & Gruenewald, 2015). Despite these differences, radical groups share common elements, from perceiving serious problems in society to embracing an ideology that legitimizes violence to address their concerns (Doosje et al., 2016). Furthermore, to understand the process of radicalization, it may be more informative to know howradicalization happens rather than who radicalizes (Horgan, 2008).

… One recent study combined previous findings on radicalization into a new model and tested it using a case study method in an Islamist sample (Pfundmair et al., 2022). This model suggested that individual preconditions lay the groundwork for a gradual increase of individual processes (e.g., the psychological needs for significance and control), group processes (e.g., polarization and perceived group threat), and cognitive processes (e.g., desensitization and dehumanization) that result in violent attitudes, intentions, and ultimately, actions. The individual preconditions that promoted such processes included different biographical breaking points. Interestingly, one of those was social exclusion—being kept apart from others physically or emotionally (Riva & Eck, 2016).

This is consistent with the conclusions of experts on terrorism from other disciplines, such as political scientists, who argue that exclusion, or at least perceptions of exclusion, might be one condition that allows terrorism to flourish (e.g., Weight-Neville & Halafoff, 2010). Indeed, social exclusion is an event that has often been identified in the life of terrorists. For example, Anders Breivik, a right-wing terrorist who killed 77 people in Norway in 2011, was described as chronically excluded: “Whatever he tried in his life, he got rejected, rejected, rejected” (Graf, 2016, p. 1). For Foued Mohamed-Aggad—an Islamist terrorist who, together with two others, killed 90 people in Paris in 2015—rejection by the army and police was an important event in his life (Hughes, 2015). Based on these observations, the question arises what impact such exclusion experiences have on those who experience it.…”
 
How social exclusion makes radicalism flourish: A review of empirical evidence


The individual preconditions that promoted such processes included different biographical breaking points. Interestingly, one of those was social exclusion—being kept apart from others physically or emotionally (Riva & Eck, 2016).

This is consistent with the conclusions of experts on terrorism from other disciplines, such as political scientists, who argue that exclusion, or at least perceptions of exclusion, might be one condition that allows terrorism to flourish (e.g., Weight-Neville & Halafoff, 2010). Indeed, social exclusion is an event that has often been identified in the life of terrorists.
This is why Kirk-style transphobia is so terribly counterproductive.
 
my dude, it was definitely bait from gt specifically intended for you. he took personal shots right at you.

your responses have included a lot of thoughtful stuff but he definitely intended to lure you in particular into a pissing match with that comment that was clearly about you.
Well, it wasn't just him. There are other extremists on here that don't really recognize that they're part of the problem.

It's just crazy to me that they can understand how destructive it is when right wing nut jobs talk about violence against people that they disagree with and then do pretty much the exact same thing. I assume that is why the topic was started.
 
Well, it wasn't just him. There are other extremists on here that don't really recognize that they're part of the problem.

It's just crazy to me that they can understand how destructive it is when right wing nut jobs talk about violence against people that they disagree with and then do pretty much the exact same thing. I assume that is why the topic was started.
who else? who are the "other extremists on here?"
 
Yeah, I wasn't talking about violence against people I disagree with. I am confronting the important issue of the day, as I outlined above. And I'm not responding to any more attacks on me. Point has been made; point has been responded to; anything else at this point is thread derailment.

It wasn't my side that destroyed rule of law. We wouldn't be here if the GOP hadn't become fascist and racist through and through, top to bottom, committing atrocities without the slightest remorse, and lying through their teeth at every fucking opportunity, even under oath.
 
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