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Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”
- Thread starter nycfan
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Much like Elon Musk and DOGE, you have an inveterate habit of making stuff up to bolster your point. I think you got this from that article you posted earlier, which refers to a trillion dollars in total Russian oil and gas sales and (misleadingly) implies that Europe makes up a large percentage of that - but later mentions in an aside that total European purchases in 2024 were more like $20 billion.
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lGobal Witness found, between January and September of this year, the U.S. imported 30 million barrels of fuel from refineries running on Russian oil. In total, that crude arrived in at least 13 cities in seven states.
Among the companies importing that oil, BP, Sunoco, and Shell
Among the companies importing that oil, BP, Sunoco, and Shell
Rodo, please don’t confuse the poor creature with facts. His brain doesn’t work at that level.
aGDevil2k
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MOUNTAINH33L
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Find someone who looks at you the way that Calla looks at Trump.
ZenMode
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What am I missing here...
I've heard multiple news updates or reports that mention European countries and whether or not they could defend themselves against an attack from Russia.
Given that Russia can't even defeat Ukraine, why is there any concern about Russia defeating multiple European countries?
I've heard multiple news updates or reports that mention European countries and whether or not they could defend themselves against an attack from Russia.
Given that Russia can't even defeat Ukraine, why is there any concern about Russia defeating multiple European countries?
Callatoroy
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“Since the invasion the Kremlin has made close to a trillion dollars from oil and gas sales – much of it from European customers.”
The article literally states that much of that trillion comes from Europe. But that isn't the point at all is it? The real issues are these:
1. The US and europe put in place sanctions to isolate putin knowing that the sale of oil and gas is what was going to fund his war. Europe undermined those sanctions by giving putin the funding to prosecute the war.
2. Biden's leadership and effectiveness in maintaining that coalition apparently was non existent. Nor could he effectively manage getting europe to seize the 400 billion in russian assets.
3. Trump inherits the war and knows, despite support from the US and europe, it isn't enough to kick putin back into russia. Why? Because europe is giving putin the financial resources he needs to keep the war going and they have more manpower.
4. Trump knows its over and is trying to negotiate a REALISTIC agreement because russia has all the leverage due to europe's financial assistance. putin can wait everyone out.
5. It now is illogical to keep sending ukraine money because its just money down the drain.
6. Given that europe was literally paying the country they were fighting through proxy, it is also illogical to bail europe out of the disaster they helped create. Europe can't negotiate a peace without the US. So the US will once again bail europe out
7. Trump is right and all who want to keep funding the war are wrong.
Initially I was in disagreement with trump when he stated he wanted to discontinue support at the biden levels. But I realized, and am on record as saying that as long as the oil is flowing russia can continue to financially wage war. That is when I accepted trump was right to end it if he could get putin to agree to no nato for ukraine and to agree no more territory acquisition beyond what it already occupied. The mineral rights deal is a win for the US and ukraine and it provides some security for ukraine.
It is beyond dumb to continue to give ukraine any more money than is absolutely necessary to hold the existing lines until a peace agreement can be achieved. Europe has pulled the rug out from under ukraine and wasted billions of dollars. They aren't all of a sudden going to stop buying the oil so there is no point in continuing for the US. It's also beyond hypocritical for europe to criticize the US in any way. They should be begging trump to get a peace deal finalized as soon as he can.
lawtig02
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^ This is exactly what I’m seeing across the Republicans I know. When your views on an important issue change 180 degrees the moment a president of your party takes office, you might take a moment to consider the sincerity of your beliefs. This is why the modern GOP is a cult.
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Nearly every mission requires hardware and software from US companies. The Euros are expecting a blackout from American companies and probably expect Trump to authorize arms sales to Russia.
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It's almost like....and hear me out now, stay with me!...but it's ALMOST like this is the very essence of why this particular poster absolutely strokes out and blows a gasket about other people being "hypocrites" or "without principles or conviction" or "spineless" or whatever else gibberish he spews. We have a word for it.....searching....searching....searching.... AHH! There it is! It's.........projection!
Because if the countries in Europe have us as a strong ally, Putin is not nearly as likely to attack them. Also, his next target when (or if) he settles his business in Ukraine will be the Baltic States. They are part of NATO. If we will not honor our commitments under Article 5, then that makes that situation more volatile. The European powers cannot standby and do nothing while Putin covers those three small countries in darkness.
NATO has been the main reason there has been no general war in Europe for 80 years. If we are not going to honor our pledge to NATO, then Europe becomes more vulnerable. Thanks a lot Trump you stupid bastard.
You are absolutely wrong with your analysis. In fact according to your own analysis you are wrong. You are looking at the past three years data and not current. The gas pipelines to the three EU countries that were buying it has been shut off at the end of last year. And Turkey, in the last two months has stopped buying the oil from Russia. Russia, in the last two months no longer has a market in Europe.
So if you look at current data, then your conclusion is wrong.
You mean you can't change the whole oil and gas distribution of a country or countries overnight? Are you sure?
lawtig02
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Oopsies.
Zelensky: US citizens in Ukraine hotel struck by Russia
Four people were killed when a Russian missile struck a hotel in Volodymyr Zelensky's home town but some American humanitarian volunteers survived the attack.
www.newsweek.com
A ballistic missile struck an ordinary hotel. Just before the attack, volunteers from a humanitarian organization—citizens of Ukraine, the United States, and the United Kingdom—had checked into the hotel.
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The European oil/gas sales are a tiny fraction of $1 trillion. They were around $20 billion in 2024 and that was an increase from the prior year. Maybe $60 billion, total, since the beginning of the war (probably less). That's my whole point - the very article you cite makes perfectly clear that European spending Russian oil and gas is nowhere near $1 trillion (as do plenty of other sources of information) yet you continue to repeat the false information uncritically because you think it helps your point to do so.
I tend to share your frustration that the European countries can't just quit the Russian oil and gas cold turkey, and that revenue has surely been beneficial to Russia, but the idea that they're keeping Russia in the war is silly. (Including because that Russian oil and gas likely would have been bought by someone else, if not the European countries.) The major things that are going to make it hard for Russia to continue this war are manpower and heavy weaponry. The BBC just estimated that Russian military deaths since February 2022 are between 146k and 211k. Not including wounded, prisoners, or MIA. That's something like 2.5x-3.5x total US deaths in Vietnam, but the Russian deaths have occurred over a much shorter time period. Russia's military is depleted and demoralized. They had to bring in North Korean troops to help replace personnel losses, and those troops have been shredded. They've also had their heavy equipment (tanks, armored personnel carriers, etc) decimated - I've seen estimates over 50% - and in many cases are now relying on Soviet-era equipment. They can't easily replace that equipment, even with extra money from oil and gas sales.
Again, not once have you even attempted to grapple with the central issue with Trump's plan of appeasing Putin: appeasement of dictators with territorial ambitions does not work as a long term strategy. By definition it does not lead to a lasting peace. Putin isn't going to just stop. He's isn't going to be satisfied with a sliver of Ukraine, any more than he was satisfied with controlling Crimea or the Donbas before. He does not think Ukraine should exist as a country. He likely does not think the Baltics should exist as countries. As leader of Russia he has repeatedly invaded sovereign nations around Russia. He will continue to do so if he is rewarded for doing it. The only way to get a lasting peace with Russia is to defeat it and to reinforce the message we, along with NATO and the UN, have consistently delivered for the last 50+ years: we will not allow wars of territorial conquest anywhere in the world, and anyone who launches such a war will face the opposition of the united international community. If Russia and China perceive that we are no longer sending that message, they will feel emboldened to pursue (or continuing pursuing) the territorial wars they want to pursue.
The problem is we now have a President who doesn't understand, and has no interest in, the lessons of history. He waves away the importance of a stable world order where no one seeks to expand their own borders, through conquest or otherwise, because he in fact has the naked ambition of expanding America's borders. He sympathizes with Putin's ambition of expanding a new, modern Russian empire because he wants America to be imperialist too. You see it in his constant talking about expanding US territory to include Greenland, Canada, the Panama Canal, whatever.
The peace trump wants to pursue--Russian appeasement--not only will not help avert WWII, it's going to help cause it. Trump's foreign policy is lessening the US's great power role as a deterrent to imperialist ambitions, and in fact Trump's own imperialist ambitions are going to accelerate the process. To ignore this is to ignore history.
Callatoroy
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But it does in China and India and other parts of the world. Europe’s purchases would be replaced to the point Russia can wait out Ukraine. The only way any of it works is to stop ALL sales of Russian oil and gas.
lawtig02
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Very good post, and ironically, this sentence applies equally to Trump vis-a-vis his support for Russia.
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Because the presence of the US as a close ally to both Europe and Ukraine is part of what has held Russia back. European leaders are rightly concerned that not only are we pulling back from our alliance, we are moving to align ourselves with Russia. it is a significant altering of the precarious balance of geopolitical power. if the US is no longer working in opposition to Russian ambitions - and especially if the US may in fact support those ambitions, whether actively or passively - Europe is in a much different place than before.
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Not only this but... WE are the reason Russia has not rolled Ukraine. Without our help, there is no way this war would have lasted this long.