Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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If Trump is able to get a deal and end this war then the world is in a better place. However, can he do it without selling out the Ukrainians? So far it’s not looking good.
 
Callatoroy said:
Quit bloviating and spouting hollow rhetoric. Your recollection of recent history is dogshit. Obama was feckless in dealing with Putin and even mocked Romney for warning about Putin. He sent MREs and blankets when Russia took crimea. Crickets from Ford then. Where was your faux outrage? Putin doesn’t move an inch with trump in office but as soon as he is out he invades a second time because pudding eating Joe has less of a spine than obama. He had 3 fucking years to do something but couldn’t find the light switch to get out of the basement. He was so useless he allowed Europe to sit back while we shouldered most of the support. Now in less than a month trump has Russia’s attention to cut a deal to end the war and you, like the idiot you are want to bitch about abandoning a country that was a fringe ally, rooted in corruption while self fellating during the last 3 years without a care in the world of brokering peace.

I would really love to know how you think it should be handled. Offer some credible opinion rather than your Kamala sounding fake indignation. Man the fuck up and tell me what trump should do and why you give vegetable Joe a pass for being the world’s bitch and military ATM. Your party’s leadership on Russia has been completely absent while Putin made Obama and Joe his prison bitches.
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Holy shit, dude. Seriously, I’m not even joking or talking junk to you anymore, go get help. Right now. Quit following me around this board trying to [Mod edit — gist was to fellate this poster] all the time and go get help. You are literally breaking right before our eyes. This was a completely unhinged post. You are not healthy. You clearly have some anger management issues that you need to resolve before you continue participating here, if something as innocuous as what I posted causes you to go into a meltdown rage at 1 AM.

I think there’s a lot of folks on this board who, despite the fact that we think you are an enormous piece of shit, would be more than happy to help you get the help you clearly need. Some things are above politics, and you are very clearly in need of psychiatric help. That was not a normal response.
 
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For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
 
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CFordUNC said:
For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
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Ukraine is about to take it no lube as Putin Puppet Trump abandons Ukraine, except for land deals. The Kyiv, Gaz twofer vaca could be in your future. Putin and Trump are weak people. They can only bully those who they feel can be pushed around. At least Biden and Romney were serious about the damn Orcs. As a former Reagan Republican, this is a disgrace and stain upon our nation...while Trump and Bibi careen toward a hot M.E. War. But, hey, we're killing brown people.
 
Bobfripp said:
Finland, Estonia and Latvia, all NATO members, are already literally on his doorstep. Poland and Lithuania border the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad Oblast, so technically also have a border with Russia.
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Thanks for adding detail to the scope of the discussion. Change "a" to "another" for greater clarity.
I don't see Putin withdrawing Russia's threats against NATO membership for Ukraine as part of a deal.
I'd LOVE to be wrong. Zelensky wants in.
 
I never thought that I would see the day when China would supplant the USA as the premier global superpower.

but if I live another 4 years, there is a good chance that I will be here to bear witness to it...
 
heelinhell said:
I never thought that I would see the day when China would supplant the USA as the premier global superpower.

but if I live another 4 years, there is a good chance that I will be here to bear witness to it...
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The craziest thing about it is that China has plenty of issues of their own domestically, so it is a complete 100% own-goal for America to be surrendering our global leadership role to them. They aren’t taking it, we are begging them to have it. That is what is so shameful.
 
Healing said:
It's not 100%, nor close, IMO. Give credit where credit is due.

China and Russia have long understood the core bigotries at the heart of a pluralizing society, particularly within the populism seeking demo. Both China and Russia have a better functional grasp on human mass psychology than Americans/US Gov. Additionally "American exceptionalism" was always an insidiousness and self serving self-pat-on-the-back, destined to result in getting caught with our pants down, and offering a wide-ass-open door for disinformation and the seeds of schism. We've known this for a decade+, but folks would rather lean into grievances and insecurities than take a beat and review where this logically ends. Something about leading a horse to water ...
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Those are really good points. I'm as guilty as anyone of believing in American exceptionalism at times but I think you nailed it here. Russia and China have successfully waged an infiltration of American government, over the course of decades, without needing to fire a single shot. Guess Nikita Krushchev was right.
 
Healing said:
It's not 100%, nor close, IMO. Give credit where credit is due.

China and Russia have long understood the core bigotries at the heart of a pluralizing society, particularly within the populism seeking demo. Both China and Russia have a better functional grasp on human mass psychology than Americans/US Gov. Any government has incentive for cynicism, but the US gov and populous has never fully grasped cynicism like China and Russia. "American exceptionalism" was always an insidiousness and self serving self-pat-on-the-back, destined to result in getting caught with our pants down, and offering a wide-ass-open door for disinformation and the seeds of schism. We've known this for a decade+, but folks would rather lean into grievances and insecurities than take a beat and review where this logically ends. Something about leading a horse to water ...
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Easier to call a Democrat a traitor than realize that your kid is hungry because of the person you put in charge. Like you said, Russia and China figured that out a long time ago.
 
CFordUNC said:
Those are really good points. I'm as guilty as anyone of believing in American exceptionalism at times but I think you nailed it here. Russia and China have successfully waged an infiltration of American government, over the course of decades, without needing to fire a single shot. Guess Nikita Krushchev was right.
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After 13+ years of living in another country (be it Canada or England) the one thing I have learned is that the world generally thinks of Americans as morons often high on their own supply. That is when they think of America at all, which in general mainly happens when stupid shits like Trump do things. Outside of sports and entertainment, the day to day foreigner thinks of America as little as possible besides the occasional facepalm or shaking their head at another school shooting.

American exceptionalism is not something acknowledged or respected. They recognize the big stick of American power, but they don't envy it.
 
altmin said:
After 13+ years of living in another country (be it Canada or England) the one thing I have learned is that the world generally thinks of Americans as morons often high on their own supply. That is when they think of America at all, which in general mainly happens when stupid shits like Trump do things. Outside of sports and entertainment, the day to day foreigner thinks of America as little as possible besides the occasional facepalm or shaking their head at another school shooting.

American exceptionalism is not something acknowledged or respected. They recognize the big stick of American power, but they don't envy it.
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Exactly. I recall when I lived in Europe back in the mid1980’s a British bloke was shaking his head at me saying: “Look what your lot has gone and done now, Yank!” (He was speaking about Ronnie Raygun)
 
CFordUNC said:
For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
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Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
 
Callatoroy said:
Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
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He should continue to neuter the Russian army by continuing to support Ukraine, although I'd like to see him be a bit more aggressive in allowing Ukraine to take the fight to Russia. That did get better in the last part of Biden's term and I understand his initial caution, but overall Biden wasn't aggressive enough. We've spent about $90 billion over the past three years, or a little over 10% of one year's worth of our defense budget, on Ukraine. It's the best defense money we've spent in my lifetime in terms of weakening our enemies and getting real time information on modern battlefield techniques, what works and what doesn't, and we haven't had to spend one American life. The money we've spent on sending them armaments has in large part come from weapons we'd have to decommission and re-supply anyway and is helping to keep our defense industry in good shape. It has additional knock off effects such as making China re-think their plan to attack Taiwan. As long as Ukraine wants to fight we should support that.
 
Callatoroy said:
Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
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You think I'm actually interested in having a discussion with you after that complete and utter batshit insanity you screeched out at midnight last night? You aren't going to get me to have a nuanced policy discussion with you by desperately following me around like a dog in heat hurling juvenile insults at me. You want me to answer questions on policy positions? You figure out a better way to ask it or don't waste my time. I'm happy to have discussions, debates, and civil disagreements with people whom I respect. I have less than zero respect for you. If anything, I have immense pity for you. I feel sorry for you.

Go get some help, buddy. Seriously. Do it for yourself, do it for your family. You're not well.
 
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