Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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Ramrouser said:
Most Republicans (including myself) still have a traditional Republican strong - on - foreign - policy approach. Rubio and Trump's negotiating team fall in this camp. Trump is an outlier in that he looks at diplomacy as making a "good deal." As we all know he's very transactional.
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Uh......."good deal"? Perhaps it was based on what Trump originally proposed. The final deal appears to mean not much at all. It was Zelensky who brought this mineral deal up months ago. I have to hand it too him. Zelensky's goal seems to be to stall as long as he can Trump pulling sanctions and American arms sales to Ukraine.

This is pure Trump. Make a deal, any deal, and then lie about it every day. Zelensky used that against Trump.
 
And anyone who says Ukraine will eventually lose is wrong. Some territory maybe. But Ukraine is well on its way to remaining independent which is absolutely in our best interest. In 18 months or less, its Putin that's going to be on the ropes.
 
The best way to look at this war is from the Russian people's side. If Ukraine does not remain independent then what happens for them? It means more war for them and more problems for us. But if Ukraine remains independent, then it stops Russia from making more war in its tracks. Sounds like a win for us.
 
Ramrouser said:
Apples to Oranges. Afghanistan has challenging mountainous terrain, making it very difficult to conquer and hold. Ukraine is on the European steppe with little to no natural defenses.
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You're right in that Ukraine's topography has more similarities to Vietnam's than Afghanistan's....
 
Ramrouser said:
But I also give him some credit. We've had more movement on the peace process since Jan 20th than we've had in two years under Biden/Blinken. The Biden Administration would have been content to simply continue pouring additional billions into the World War I meat grinder which Ukraine would eventually lose since it can't win a war of attrition against Russia and no Ukrainian allies (US included) are willing to send in soldiers into the trenches like North Korea is doing for Russia. At least Trump has things moving towards a negotiated settlement. It's just painful watching the sausage being made.
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I followed your train of thought in the first paragraph.

But let's be real about the second one. Putin had a strategy the last 18 months or so of waiting out the western democracies. He knew there was a decent chance of Trump winning and thus having a much more pliable counterpart.

What I'm wondering is ion Trump will give in on all Russian points.
 
Let's also be real about who has been "content to pour billions into the WWI meat grinder". That is Putin and Putin alone. Nobody except him and his sycophants wants this war to continue and without Biden's support he likely would have gotten his wish of accomplishing the first step in putting back together the USSR. So blaming Biden for Putin's war is yet another morally bankrupt position of MAGA.
 
Look - Russia is the ultimate loser in this war. They were supposed to conquer Ukraine with "shock and awe" in a matter of weeks, not get bogged down in a 3+ year war. They've lost nearly a million men and their equipment has either been destroyed or exposed as sub par. It will be a decade or so before Putin or his successor could even contemplate a serious invasion of another county. All they've gained is the Donbas region, which will require billions or trillions to rebuild.

For this I give the Ukrainians a TON of credit. They've fought like no other ally of the US has fought using our equipment since the Russians in WWII.
 
Ramrouser said:
Look - Russia is the ultimate loser in this war. They were supposed to conquer Ukraine with "shock and awe" in a matter of weeks, not get bogged down in a 3+ year war. They've lost nearly a million men and their equipment has either been destroyed or exposed as sub par. It will be a decade or so before Putin or his successor could even contemplate a serious invasion of another county. All they've gained is the Donbas region, which will require billions or trillions to rebuild.

For this I give the Ukrainians a TON of credit. They've fought like no other ally of the US has fought using our equipment since the Russians in WWII.
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If you believe this then why give Putin the out by pulling our support? That don't make no sense.
 
I think Putin was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to manipulate the electorate back in 2016. He feels he has the read on Western democracies and how to play them. There was just that little inconvenience of the 3 day operation dragging on three years.

If Trump were really an effective negotiator, he'd recognize he also has Russia over the side of the barrel, but he's too busy fucking with US allies.
 
Enigma94 said:
If you believe this then why give Putin the out by pulling our support? That don't make no sense.
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Because I see no reasonable path forward for Ukraine regaining their lost territory. The battle lines have hardened and have remained stagnant for 2 years.
 
Ramrouser said:
Because I see no reasonable path forward for Ukraine regaining their lost territory. The battle lines have hardened and have remained stagnant for 2 years.
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But that's Ukraine's choice to continue to fight or not. In the meantime we've spent a little over 10% of one year's worth of defense budget over three years and as you put it yourself Russia is the ultimate loser. Why would we pull support from someone who wants to fight that is pennies on the dollar in terms of defenestrating one of our two primary geopolitical rivals and probably the most evil regime on the planet? All that does is give them what they want.
 
Enigma94 said:
But that's Ukraine's choice to continue to fight or not. In the meantime we've spent a little over 10% of one year's worth of defense budget over three years and as you put it yourself Russia is the ultimate loser. Why would we pull support from someone who wants to fight that is pennies on the dollar in terms of defenestrating one of our two primary geopolitical rivals and probably the most evil regime on the planet? All that does is give them what they want.
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Peace is good. Lasting peace is better.

Russians are famous for at least two things - tolerance for hardship and patience. They would gladly wait a decade to reestablish themselves before trying again. They may do that regardless of the outcome of the Ukraine war. But if they see they can chew up portions of Ukraine at a time, they'll rightly see a path (albeit a long path) to swallowing the whole thing.
 
Ramrouser said:
Because I see no reasonable path forward for Ukraine regaining their lost territory. The battle lines have hardened and have remained stagnant for 2 years.
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Take the gloves off of them. Give them the tools and permission to retaliate in kind. Once Russian apartment buildings, hospitals, college dormitories, churches, hotels, museums, libraries, shopping malls and elementary schools start getting obliterated, the Kremlin will have to reconsider the situation.
 
Ramrouser said:
Look - Russia is the ultimate loser in this war. They were supposed to conquer Ukraine with "shock and awe" in a matter of weeks, not get bogged down in a 3+ year war. They've lost nearly a million men and their equipment has either been destroyed or exposed as sub par. It will be a decade or so before Putin or his successor could even contemplate a serious invasion of another county. All they've gained is the Donbas region, which will require billions or trillions to rebuild.

For this I give the Ukrainians a TON of credit. They've fought like no other ally of the US has fought using our equipment since the Russians in WWII.
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If you believe all that, then you should also give Joe Biden a ton of credit.
 
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