Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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nycfan said:
If your next door neighbor used force to try to take over your land and home, but you defended yourself to limit the neighbors to taking a third of your yard and let’s say your garage but not the rest of the home, are you saying your aggressive invader neighbor should get to keep what they took if they will just quit trying to take more and you will take it on faith that the same neighbor won’t use the break in fighting to re-arm and try to take more of your home and land again later? Or would you want some assurances of defense against future attacks before stopping your current self-defense efforts and giving your attacker part of your land and the chance to regroup? Note that your aggressive neighbor already took your adjacent waterfront property several years ago and has violated prior written ceasefire agreements brokered by other neighbors.
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These might be the post that ends dogwood’s participation in this thread.
 


The White House is spending a lot of effort/media capital to combat the view that the meeting was a set-up. Everybody who is a source for anyone in the media seems to have been sent scurrying to make this point.

[Aside: That sounds like a disappointing menu for a modern White House visit, TBH. Substitute a jello-based dessert and it sounds like a menu from Ike’s administration…]

“… The East Room of the White House had been decorated in greenery and four pairs of American and Ukrainian flags, set up for the leaders to sign a minerals deal that national security adviser Michael Waltz called “critical” for the United States. Elsewhere, White House staff were preparing a celebratory lunch of rosemary roasted chicken and crème brûlée, with the menu laid out on stationery bearing closely intertwined American and Ukrainian flags.

White House officials were expecting a positive meeting and said they had little reason to anticipate animosity. Both sides were satisfied with the minerals deal, hoping it might recalibrate the relationship between the two nations, Ukrainian and U.S. officials said, speaking like others on condition of anonymity to discuss relations at a tense time. Trump himself was in an upbeat mood the night before the meeting, according to those who had spoken with him.

…
The first sign of problems to come appeared shortly thereafter: After Zelensky got out of his car in his traditional wartime fatigues, Trump looked at reporters and said, “He’s all dressed up today.”

It reflected a long-standing complaint that some conservatives have had about the Ukrainian leader, and was resurrected in the Oval Office when Brian Glenn, a correspondent at Real America’s Voice and the partner of Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Georgia), asked Zelensky, “Why don’t you wear a suit? You’re at the highest level in this country’s office, and you refuse to wear a suit.” …”
 
Continued — WH is crediting/blaming Vance:

“… Vance had sat through two bilateral Oval Office press gaggles earlier in the week with little interjection, speaking up only when Trump called on him to answer a reporter’s question Thursday during British Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s visit.

… But fresh in Vance’s mind was a meeting only two weeks earlier in Munich, where he, Rubio and Zelensky — before aides and cameras joined them — had a serious conversation about signing the minerals deal, according to administration officials. The day after the meeting, however, Zelensky said he couldn’t sign a deal that wasn’t connected to security guarantees.

Rubio later said in an interview that Zelensky had assured Vance and himself that he wanted “to do this deal” and only needed legislative approval to get it done, and that Zelensky’s later public comments left the Americans “upset” — a sentiment that loomed over Friday’s Oval Office talks, even as the Trump administration was preparing to make the deal happen.

Vance’s in-the-moment decision to criticize Zelensky for not being “respectful” and questioning Trump’s diplomatic strategy changed the tone of the meeting and primed Trump to also let loose on the Ukrainian president.

… Trump and Vance later spoke about the interaction, and Vance’s decision to chime in, and Trump indicated that he approved of the vice president’s comments, according to a White House official.

“They both felt exactly the same way about the circumstances, that Zelensky was being inappropriate,” the official said, and that “it was not right for him to be litigating” the U.S. strategy with Russia “in front of the press.” …”
 
nycfan said:
Continued — WH is crediting/blaming Vance:

“… Vance had sat through two bilateral Oval Office press gaggles earlier in the week with little interjection, speaking up only when Trump called on him to answer a reporter’s question Thursday during British Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s visit.

… But fresh in Vance’s mind was a meeting only two weeks earlier in Munich, where he, Rubio and Zelensky — before aides and cameras joined them — had a serious conversation about signing the minerals deal, according to administration officials. The day after the meeting, however, Zelensky said he couldn’t sign a deal that wasn’t connected to security guarantees.

Rubio later said in an interview that Zelensky had assured Vance and himself that he wanted “to do this deal” and only needed legislative approval to get it done, and that Zelensky’s later public comments left the Americans “upset” — a sentiment that loomed over Friday’s Oval Office talks, even as the Trump administration was preparing to make the deal happen.

Vance’s in-the-moment decision to criticize Zelensky for not being “respectful” and questioning Trump’s diplomatic strategy changed the tone of the meeting and primed Trump to also let loose on the Ukrainian president.

… Trump and Vance later spoke about the interaction, and Vance’s decision to chime in, and Trump indicated that he approved of the vice president’s comments, according to a White House official.

“They both felt exactly the same way about the circumstances, that Zelensky was being inappropriate,” the official said, and that “it was not right for him to be litigating” the U.S. strategy with Russia “in front of the press.” …”
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Continued

“…
We “pretty much unanimously advised the president that after that insult in the Oval Office, we just do not see how that could move forward, that any further engagement would only go backward from this moment on,” Waltz told “Fox News Saturday.”

It fell to him and Rubio — both of them past defenders of Ukraine and Zelensky — to bring the news to the Ukrainians.

Waltz said that Ukrainian Ambassador Oksana Markarova was “practically in tears” as the delegation sat waiting, but that Zelensky was still argumentative.

Waltz said that he told Zelensky, “Look, Mr. President, time is not on your side here. Time is not on your side on the battlefield. Time is not on your side in terms of the world situation and most importantly, U.S. aid and the taxpayers, tolerance is not unlimited.”

The national security adviser said that Zelensky “has not gotten the memo that this is a new sheriff in town.”

… Zelensky traveled to London on Saturday to meet Prime Minister Keir Starmer, who convened a summit Sunday with other European leaders who have rallied behind the Ukrainian leader.

On Saturday, Rutte, the NATO secretary general, who is expected to attend the summit, described the meeting as “unfortunate,” but said he made clear to Zelensky that it was important to “find a way to restore his relationship” with Trump and others in the administration. …”
 
Silence Dogood said:
He could yes but if he doesn't then what? Why didn't Biden stop him?
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I'm really finding it difficult not to insult your lack of intelligence. You really don't have a fucking clue about anything. Biden's plan was literally working as well as any plan could possibly work. He was dismantling Russia's military without spending a single American life. All it was costing him was outdated American munitions and weapons, which btw, we were being paid to produce. Meanwhile, Russia was slamming itself repeatedly into a wall, taking more casualties to its military, and the world was turning against Putin by the day as we ramped up political pressure on them.

And then Trump got involved from afar, Republicans began balking at helping Ukraine, and it became more difficult to get them the help they needed to continue the fight. And now with Trump in office, he's not only halted all aid, he's actually trying to paint Ukraine as the bad guys in this conflict.

What took place in the Oval Office the other day was one of the most embarrassing, disgusting, and amateurish things I'd ever seen from a sitting US President in a diplomatic setting. Trump planned this ambush out well in advance, both due to his idolatry of that evil dictator Putin and his lingering anger at Zelensky for the phone call that let to his first impeachment years ago. You could see it on Marco Rubio's face. It was a complete and utter travesty.

Trump never intended to sign a minerals deal to continue to aid Ukraine. It was never going to happen. What he IS going to do is pull all aid for Ukraine, allow Russia to finish their conquest of the country, and then split the minerals and resources with Putin as they strip mine what's left of it.

We are the bad guys in the world now. We are on the side of dictators and despots. And it's due to dumb fucks like you being allowed to vote.
 
It’s sadly ironic that MAGAts are now on the warpath of wanting the United States to leave NATO, when the United States is the only NATO nation to have ever invoked Article 5, and in fact, Ukraine sent troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq on our behalf- losing around 20 KIA- and yet we have not shed a single drop of American blood in Ukraine.
 
I have a question
Ae we suppossed to get all these minerals from Ukraine for free?
 
CFordUNC said:
It’s sadly ironic that MAGAts are now on the warpath of wanting the United States to leave NATO, when the United States is the only NATO nation to have ever invoked Article 5, and in fact, Ukraine sent troops to both Afghanistan and Iraq on our behalf- losing around 20 KIA- and yet we have not shed a single drop of American blood in Ukraine.
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MAGAs being selfish? Well I for one am shocked.
 
wmheel1287 said:
President Obama said that Democrats are the party of abandoning friends and capitulating to enemies? I'm going to need to see that.
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Did you say those words? No. Did he make it clear that protecting Ukraine from Russia was unimportant to the US? Yes.

He also said, in a debate with Romney, that being concerned about Russia was a foreign policy view from the '80s.
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