Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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Lando said:
Let's say Europe rallies and we aren't needed for muscle going forward. Do we close down bases? Are we forced to close down bases? What happens to our ability to project power? Do we wake up one day and realize our military looks like Russia's current mess?
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All reasonable questions. Messes that will be left for future administrations to clean up. Assuming we have elections moving forward.
 
CFordUNC said:
I can totally understand that perspective and think there are certainly elements of truth to it, but ultimately I do personally believe that while we did/have spent a fortune on defense, we've gotten a tremendous ROI over the lasts several decades as the world's economic, cultural, and soft power leader. My fear is that we are in the process of squandering all of that and then some.
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I certainly agree we did get some positives but if I could just compare it to what we could have had... Medicare for all, more infrastructure, government paid for college. It was just so much money.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
About a decade after the cold war, someone asked Gorbachev who won the cold war. His response was no one. We all lost. Both sides spent a fortune on defense and in the end, we are mostly in the same place, outside of some countries in Eastern Europe. Can you imagine how much better off most countries would have been if we had spent all that money on something other than the military? It was a lost 50 years.

So at some point you have to say enough. Who cares who "wins" the Cold war. Its time for peace and some reprioritization away from the military industrial complex.
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This is an insanely naive take when one side is led by one of the greatest warmongers in world history.

Chamberlain, that you?
 
rodoheel said:
Yeah can anyone remind me what happened the last time the US tried to stay out of a European conflict involving an autocratic strongman that we didn't think was any of our business? Surely Europe made peace itself and nothing later happened that forced us into a world war.
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churchill spent years imploring, essentially doing the diplomatic version of begging, the US to enter the war. the splendid and the vile by erik larson is a fun read i recently finished about this time period.

the brits certainly didn't want a bunch of americans to get slaughtered at pearl harbor but they were pretty relieved when it happened.
 
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gtyellowjacket said:
So at some point you have to say enough. Who cares who "wins" the Cold war. Its time for peace and some reprioritization away from the military industrial complex.
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And I suppose the Soviet Union would have fallen on its own if we said early on "who cares who wins the cold war"?

I rather doubt in the end we would have saved all that money should it not have fallen on its own.
 
BlueSmoke said:
And I suppose the Soviet Union would have fallen on its own if we said early on "who cares who wins the cold war"?

I rather doubt in the end we would have saved all that money should it not have fallen on its own.
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I say who cares if the Soviet Union fell. Are the people in Russia better off today? I mean maybe a few oligarchs are richer but they still have a dictatorship. They still don't have freedom of speech.

So we spent a bunch of money and they spent a bunch of money and everything is pretty much in the same place today as it was before the Soviet Union fell. The Baltics are probably an exception, but the vast vast majority of former Soviet citizens aren't that much better off. I realize that some of that is hindsight is 20/20 but at this point it's not hindsight anymore.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I say who cares if the Soviet Union fell. Are the people in Russia better off today? I mean maybe a few oligarchs are richer but they still have a dictatorship. They still don't have freedom of speech.

So we spent a bunch of money and they spent a bunch of money and everything is pretty much in the same place today as it was before the Soviet Union fell. The Baltics are probably an exception, but the vast vast majority of former Soviet citizens aren't that much better off. I realize that some of that is hindsight is 20/20 but at this point it's not hindsight anymore.
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Poland is better off. Czech and Slovakia are better off. East Germany is better off. Romania and Bulgaria are better off. The Caucuses are better off. The Baltics, as you mention, are way better off. In general, the world is better off when Russia is not exerting a sphere of influence over its neighbors.
 
Calheel said:
Poland is better off. Czech and Slovakia are better off. East Germany is better off. Romania and Bulgaria are better off. The Caucuses are better off. The Baltics, as you mention, are way better off. In general, the world is better off when Russia is not exerting a sphere of influence over its neighbors.
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Okay, but remember that the iron curtain fell before the Soviet Union fell. I won't argue that those countries aren't better off but that's not really the situation right now. The situation right now is Russia. I'm happy to spend money to help the ukrainians but I can't imagine why we need to spend money to keep bases in Germany, or the UK, or Spain. Italy, I kind of get to keep some air bases and naval assets near North Africa but it's an awful lot of troops for the mission.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I say who cares if the Soviet Union fell. Are the people in Russia better off today? I mean maybe a few oligarchs are richer but they still have a dictatorship. They still don't have freedom of speech.

So we spent a bunch of money and they spent a bunch of money and everything is pretty much in the same place today as it was before the Soviet Union fell. The Baltics are probably an exception, but the vast vast majority of former Soviet citizens aren't that much better off. I realize that some of that is hindsight is 20/20 but at this point it's not hindsight anymore.
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"and everything is pretty much in the same place today as it was before the Soviet Union fell". GT

Ask yourself what would have happened if the Soviet Union had not fallen because we gave up fighting the cold war ten to fifteen years before 1989? And I'm focused on the outcome for the United States. Not concerned about anyone else but us.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Okay, but remember that the iron curtain fell before the Soviet Union fell. I won't argue that those countries aren't better off but that's not really the situation right now. The situation right now is Russia. I'm happy to spend money to help the ukrainians but I can't imagine why we need to spend money to keep bases in Germany, or the UK, or Spain. Italy, I kind of get to keep some air bases and naval assets near North Africa but it's an awful lot of troops for the mission.
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It was all part and parcel of the same process. The Wall fell in '89, but Russia let that happen. And the USSR fell in 1991. To me, it is all part of the same thing and it is to Putin, as well. He is trying to recreate a USSR-lite.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I certainly agree we did get some positives but if I could just compare it to what we could have had... Medicare for all, more infrastructure, government paid for college. It was just so much money.
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This has an inking of truth, in a vacuum, within the bounds of basic arithmetic. However, this completely misses the calculus of geopolitical stability, trade relationships, domestic military spending, etc. that the US military AND democracy have facilitated, worldwide. Yes, we’ve likely significantly overspent on military planning, armaments, infrastructure, etc. but you can’t reasonably claim “if x wouldn’t have existed, y would’ve been possible.”
 
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