Russia - US | Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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05C40 said:
President Trump's performance today was the most disgusting public display of obeisance to a foreign entity by an American politician I have seen or heard in my life. From this point on, any argument that Vlad "the Ras" Putin does not have St. Donald of Mar-a-Lago's genitals in his pocket is presumptively a bad faith argument.
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Speaking of which, I was surprised that Vance was able to get Trump's member out of his mouth long enough to insult Zelenskyy. They are an embarrassment.
 
Somepne asked me which character Trump would be in
Godfather 1 and 2.
I'd guess the self-control of Sonny, the smarts of Fredo, but overall he is our version of Don Fanucci
 
wmheel1287 said:
YOU said people here were happy about today.
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Yea, I mean secretly. I wouldn’t expect you would post your glee. That wouldn’t look good would it? The opposite would you guys were all hoping this deal would get done and trump gets a big win. That wouldn’t fly either would it? So I went with the first and most likely scenario.
 
Bobfripp said:


I know this would be cruel to Estonia, but could we trade leaders?
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This is one way that today’s stunt could backfire on Trump.

If the major European countries show a united front in support of Ukraine and are able to turn the tide of the war, it will make Trump look incredibly weak.

In fact, most hate Trump and are probably salivating at the prospect.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
This is one way that today’s stunt could backfire on Trump.

If the major European countries show a united front in support of Ukraine and are able to turn the tide of the war, it will make Trump look incredibly weak.

In fact, most hate Trump and are probably salivating at the prospect.
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I really don't think Trump would mind one bit if the Europeans took more of the defense burden against Russia. He has been pushing that for about a decade at this point.
 
Callatoroy said:
What does that peace deal look like (beneficial to ukraine and not for russia)? Why would russia ever agree to anything that wasn't beneficial to them? How would it be structured to bring russia to heel?
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Trump is trying to get Ukraine to agree to something that isn't beneficial to them. Why do you think it's a better strategy to try to browbeat our ally into a bad deal than to try to force our enemy into a bad deal?

But in any event, the "good deal" for Putin will be the lifting of sanctions and the chance to stop throwing away his economy and his people on an unprovoked invasion of his neighbor. Any deal for Putin that involves him still in charge of Russia and not on trial for war crimes is a "good deal" for Putin. Trump can use his tough-guy persona, the art of the deal bullshit, to try to intimidate Putin, not our own ally. The problem, if course, is that he's essentially on Putin's side because he sympathizes more with Putin than Zelensky. Trump wants the level of power and control Putin has. He wants a "might makes right" world order where when he says jump, everyone else says how high. That's the whole problem here.

Any fool can see that allowing Putin to keep territorial gains as a part of a peace settlement - rather than demand he give back the territory he invaded - is a slap in the face to Ukraine and will simply encourage future belligerence.
 
Callatoroy said:
Yea, I mean secretly. I wouldn’t expect you would post your glee. That wouldn’t look good would it? The opposite would you guys were all hoping this deal would get done and trump gets a big win. That wouldn’t fly either would it? So I went with the first and most likely scenario.
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Keep slurping
Worm Eating GIF by NETFLIX
 
I'll agree with our board cynic, OG, that US leadership not always what it's been portrayed.

Hey, we're honest men and women here. We know the score. We know all the awful we've done.

But I'll say this: NATO is not a bad thing. My socialist friends may think it akin to "Nazism," but they're wrong.

I think we'll very much regret its demise, should that develop.

We've ran for 80 years now without a major war. I know nukes play a part but the alliance has certainly helped. There was a war in Europe practically every other year before.

People are spoiled. They don't understand.

Of course we can all visualize a wonderful world otherwise, but we know better. We deal with the best we have. And I think we'll regret this very much.
 
Here is a question. Let’s hypothesize that European powers decide to get militarily involved in the conflict.

Now let’s assume it went nuclear with a few large devices used against population centers.

If Trump decided to use nukes himself, would he nuke Europe or Russia?
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
Here is a question. Let’s hypothesize that European powers decide to get militarily involved in the conflict.

Now let’s assume it went nuclear with a few large devices used against population centers.

If Trump decided to use nukes himself, would he nuke Europe or Russia?
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100% nukes Paris.
 
Burgawnc said:
Negotiations are generally held in private away from the press for exactly the reason against events as happened today.
Trump’s handlers nefariously brought the press (including Russian state media) into the negotiations so as to influence the Ukrainian public into accepting the Russian terms.
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The White House invited RT but not the AP or Reuters. This was 100% an ambush to please Putin.
 
Callatoroy said:
Yea, I mean secretly. I wouldn’t expect you would post your glee. That wouldn’t look good would it? The opposite would you guys were all hoping this deal would get done and trump gets a big win. That wouldn’t fly either would it? So I went with the first and most likely scenario.
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This is so utterly devoid of anything resembling good faith. I guarantee you there is not a single person on this board who wanted today to go the way it went. This victimization thing is so utterly weird. I don't know what kind of perverse enjoyment comes from being entirely disingenuous all the time, but you certainly voted for the right person because you're mimicking him perfectly now.
 
rodoheel said:
Trump is trying to get Ukraine to agree to something that isn't beneficial to them. Why do you think it's a better strategy to try to browbeat our ally into a bad deal than to try to force our enemy into a bad deal?

But in any event, the "good deal" for Putin will be the lifting of sanctions and the chance to stop throwing away his economy and his people on an unprovoked invasion of his neighbor. Any deal for Putin that involves him still in charge of Russia and not on trial for war crimes is a "good deal" for Putin. Trump can use his tough-guy persona, the art of the deal bullshit, to try to intimidate Putin, not our own ally. The problem, if course, is that he's essentially on Putin's side because he sympathizes more with Putin than Zelensky. Trump wants the level of power and control Putin has. He wants a "might makes right" world order where when he says jump, everyone else says how high. That's the whole problem here.

Any fool can see that allowing Putin to keep territorial gains as a part of a peace settlement - rather than demand he give back the territory he invaded - is a slap in the face to Ukraine and will simply encourage future belligerence.
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I can’t even wrap my head around how pubs think any of this is good. It’s like we’ve been sucked into the twilight zone or something. Honestly the bridge is too far. If this performance by Trump and Vance appeal to you ion not sure we could ever agree on anything. Like what is in th water y’all are drinking?
 
rodoheel said:
Trump is trying to get Ukraine to agree to something that isn't beneficial to them. Why do you think it's a better strategy to try to browbeat our ally into a bad deal than to try to force our enemy into a bad deal?

But in any event, the "good deal" for Putin will be the lifting of sanctions and the chance to stop throwing away his economy and his people on an unprovoked invasion of his neighbor. Any deal for Putin that involves him still in charge of Russia and not on trial for war crimes is a "good deal" for Putin. Trump can use his tough-guy persona, the art of the deal bullshit, to try to intimidate Putin, not our own ally. The problem, if course, is that he's essentially on Putin's side because he sympathizes more with Putin than Zelensky. Trump wants the level of power and control Putin has. He wants a "might makes right" world order where when he says jump, everyone else says how high. That's the whole problem here.

Any fool can see that allowing Putin to keep territorial gains as a part of a peace settlement - rather than demand he give back the territory he invaded - is a slap in the face to Ukraine and will simply encourage future belligerence.
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Not trying to be a jerk but that’s all fairy tale stuff. Putin will never agree to any of that so it’s all a non starter and I think you know it. Ukraine is out of options unless Europe is going to carry all of the load. Zel is out of options because he is running out of troops. Putin has more resources and can wait Zel out. That mineral rights deal was his future security.
 
altmin said:
The White House invited RT but not the AP or Reuters. This was 100% an ambush to please Putin.
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Yep. This was a setup from the beginning, at the behest of Putin. Honestly, I’m now mildly impressed Zelenskyy got out alive. If the tide hadn’t turned in putin’s favor over the last year, I have no doubt don and jd would have little issue helping with the assassination of Zelenskyy.
 
Callatoroy said:
Yea, I mean secretly. I wouldn’t expect you would post your glee. That wouldn’t look good would it? The opposite would you guys were all hoping this deal would get done and trump gets a big win. That wouldn’t fly either would it? So I went with the first and most likely scenario.
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Nah, man. Only you guys actively root/act against American interests whenever they conflict with Trump’s, which is pretty often.

Kids and babies are getting blown up over there. Bringing an end to that while preserving the sovereignty and territory that is rightfully Ukraine’s would be roundly celebrated. We just all know Trump won’t secure that. He won’t even try.
 
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