Russia - US | Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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4thgenheel said:
churchill spent years imploring, essentially doing the diplomatic version of begging, the US to enter the war. the splendid and the vile by erik larson is a fun read i recently finished about this time period.

the brits certainly didn't want a bunch of americans to get slaughtered at pearl harbor but they were pretty relieved when it happened.
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Great book!!
 
EyeballKid said:
Even if he does, why the fuck would you think that Zelensky was the disrespectful party in the negotiation?
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It’s pretty self evident. You don’t lecture and argue with the potus and vp in his office on national TV for any reason. Doesn’t matter if you like him or not. You can call his mother a whore if you want behind closed doors but not in his office and on TV. So yes, trump and Vance weren’t the only ones being disrespectful. Zel represented the disrespect quite well.
 
Callatoroy said:
“Months after war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, then-President Joe Biden had a fiery private phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which included Biden allegedly losing "his temper" and calling on Ukraine to "show a little more gratitude" towards the U.S. for its support, a resurfaced 2022 NBC News report shows.’
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I recall the conversation, as reported, as going something like this:

Z: We need to be able to strike targets inside Russia. Please take that condition off.
B: I won't.
Z: But then we will not be able to win, and your weaponry won't be useful.
B: I can't risk starting a broader war
Z: I thought you were helping us.
B: We are helping you. Show a little more gratitude.

And if the conversation went like that, I've no problem with either person's behavior. Obviously they didn't do it in public, and Biden didn't seem to let it affect his policy. So what happens behind closed doors doesn't really matter. Until you're put in the situation where you have to have these discussions, you shouldn't judge.

The problem isn't that Trump was rude to Z. Personally, I think the thing about the attire is stupid, but if Trump felt the need to dress Z down backstage, that's boorish but not a national emergency so long as they walk out to do what they were supposed to do. The problem is he did it out in the open, and he's now letting it affect our policy, which is an absolute no-no. Or, more likely, it was a ruse to create an excuse for Trump doing Putin's bidding, which is even worse. Either way, it's categorically different and more harmful.
 
Callatoroy said:
“Months after war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, then-President Joe Biden had a fiery private phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which included Biden allegedly losing "his temper" and calling on Ukraine to "show a little more gratitude" towards the U.S. for its support, a resurfaced 2022 NBC News report shows.’
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The key word here is private. That’s when you vent differences. Not in a public forum.
 
Callatoroy said:
“Months after war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, then-President Joe Biden had a fiery private phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which included Biden allegedly losing "his temper" and calling on Ukraine to "show a little more gratitude" towards the U.S. for its support, a resurfaced 2022 NBC News report shows.’
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Fox News doing damage control here just goes to underscore how completely shameful Trump and Vance were.
 
Ramrouser said:
If you visit someone’s home and they ask you to remove your shoes upon entering, you do it. Z showed no respect to the President and the decorum inside the Oval Office. His attire was just one example of his disrespect.

It’s not soft. Reagan wouldn’t even take off his jacket in the Oval and would have had Z promptly removed upon observing his attire.
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That analogy only works if someone from the Trump admin asked Z to wear a suit to the meeting and he refused to do it.

A more apt analogy would be if you threw a dinner party where people were dressed up nicely, and one of your guests who came a long way showed up in a t-shirt and shorts. Are you going to be rude and unwelcoming toward your guest, or are you going to be a gracious host?

There was nothing disrespectful about what Zelensky was wearing. He’s been trying to lead a country that was attacked by another country led by a tyrant and is in a fight— within its borders— to maintain its sovereignty and its territory. He was wearing what he has been wearing for the past 2+ years. No one with at least half a brain and a trace of humanity should give a shit about what Zelensky was wearing. And the fact is they wouldn’t have, but MAGA has identified Zelensky a someone that Trump doesn’t like so that gives them a stupid reason to mindlessly fall in line with the MAGA pile-on. He is (or least was) an ally who came as a guest and should have been treated with respect, as an ally and guest should be treated, but he was instead treated like shit. It was beyond shameful.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
It’s all so fucking gross. Why are we doing every single thing Putin wants? Why are we aligning with Russia?
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We aren’t aligning with Russia. We are trying to create some space between China and Russia. After all is said and done, Russia will be the loser on the world stage and won’t have conquered Ukraine.
 
CFordUNC said:
So weird.

Democrats say America is aligning with Russia.

Republicans say America is aligning with Russia.

Trump says America is aligning with Russia.

Russia says America is aligning with Russia.

Who can possibly say what the truth is anymore!?!?
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It is clear we are aligning with Russia
No doubt
 
Callatoroy said:
I have already voiced that trump and Vance f’ed up but that doesn’t mean Zel wasn’t also disrespectful
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Name one thing he did that was disrespectful. He got ambushed and unfairly ridiculed and berated. Yet he held it together pretty well, especially considering he was trying to communicate in a second language and has probably barely slept over the past 2+ years.
 
The White House is contemplating lifting economic sanctions on Russia while simultaneously preparing to slap draconian tariffs on our closest allies and trading partners. I’m sure our resident Putin simps will be able to articulate why this is making America great again soon enough. Just you libs wait!
 
Callatoroy said:
“Months after war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, then-President Joe Biden had a fiery private phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which included Biden allegedly losing "his temper" and calling on Ukraine to "show a little more gratitude" towards the U.S. for its support, a resurfaced 2022 NBC News report shows.’
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Cool. Was that on camera for the entire world to see, intentionally?
 
Callatoroy said:
“Months after war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, then-President Joe Biden had a fiery private phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which included Biden allegedly losing "his temper" and calling on Ukraine to "show a little more gratitude" towards the U.S. for its support, a resurfaced 2022 NBC News report shows.’
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Did Biden pull support after that like a little fascist baby?
 
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