Sean O’Brien

[Paine]

Look what you made me do! should be the new teamsters slogan. That would look great on the rear bumpers of a bunch of trucks parked outside the unemployment office.

It’s not “look what you made me do.” It’s that the average working person has become so disenchanted of the idea that one party or the other is for working people that they are willing to look anywhere, even to the Republicans. How is this anything but an indictment of Democratic Party policy towards labor?

 

[WaynetheDrain]

You might be the saddest poster on this message board.

I'm not the one salivating over the worst teamster boss in history. Even Jimmy Hoffa is laughing at the guy.

 

[Paine]

So, because no one expects anything from republicans, they get a pass, while democrats are held to a higher standard?

The idea of voting for trump from any leader of a labor group is just puzzling. trump doesn't care about them, he fucked them every chance he had his entire life. So, maybe this does go on the FAFO thread. If one votes against their own interest because they hold one party to a higher standard just doesn't make sense.

Yes, Democrats should be held to the standard of being the party of labor and the working class. They have failed to live up to that, and now we are living with the consequences. That’s why it’s FAFO, if anything.

 

[Paine]

I'm not the one salivating over the worst teamster boss in history. Even Jimmy Hoffa is laughing at the guy.

I’m salivating over him?

 

[WaynetheDrain]

It’s not “look what you made me do.” It’s that the average working person has become so disenchanted of the idea that one party of the other is for working people that they are willing to look anywhere, even to the Republicans. How is this anything but an indictment of Democratic Party policy towards labor?

It's an indictment of stupid people that vote against their interests. That's all it is.

But we don't need to play the "what-if" game here. Trump won, and now we'll find out how great he is for blue-collar, working America. Early results are shaky, but let's see what happens.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

It’s not “look what you made me do.” It’s that the average working person has become so disenchanted of the idea that one party of the other is for working people that they are willing to look anywhere, even to the Republicans. How is this anything but an indictment of Democratic Party policy towards labor?

Spite. That’s the word you’re describing.

 

[Paine]

It's an indictment of stupid people that vote against their interests. That's all it is.

But we don't need to play the "what-if" game here. Trump won, and now we'll find out how great he is for blue-collar, working America. Early results are shaky, but let's see what happens.

You know I’m not implying that Trump will be good for working class Americans. We cannot just keep blaming the voters man.

 

[UNCatTech]

Yes, Democrats should be held to the standard of being the party of labor and the working class. They have failed to live up to that, and now we are living with the consequences. That’s why it’s FAFO, if anything.

That aside, how is voting for trump the better thing to do for labor? Is he in a better position today?

I still don't get the idea of voting for the party you have lower expectations for.

If I expect an 8 from the dems and a 2 from the pubs, getting a 2 from the pubs and a 5 from the dems doesn't lead me to see the pubs and the party earning my vote.

 

[Paine]

Spite. That’s the word you’re describing.

Sure. Spite, anger, whatever you want to say. My point is that the Democrats cannot wash their hands of this. It’s not entirely their fault, that’s obvious. But it’s just as dumb to say Democrats played no role in how we got here as it is to say that it’s just the voters’ fault.

 

[Paine]

That aside, how is voting for trump the better thing to do for labor? Is he in a better position today?

I still don't get the idea of voting for the party you have lower expectations for.

If I expect an 8 from the dems and a 2 from the pubs, getting a 2 from the pubs and a 5 from the dems doesn't lead me to see the pubs and the party earning my vote.

I think O’Brien was of the mind that Trump would win. So, by his calculation, he is in a better position now than he would’ve been had he endorsed Harris. He would’ve lost credibility with over half of his members and had no leverage with the incoming administration. At least now, he has something.

I still think it’s stupid that he didn’t endorse the Democrats from a larger labor organizing perspective, but it makes sense for him from a pure politics perspective.

 

[UNCatTech]

We cannot just keep blaming the voters man.

Why, they made choices. They felt that he was the better choice in the race.

Even if the dems made mistakes or didn't run the perfect candidate, didn't market well, what ever, it comes down to being an informed voter.

The dems are not perfect, I don't agree with everything they do, propose, etc. BUT, trump is the worst candidate to run for office in my lifetime. How do people vote for someone who so clearly is not a leader, a liar, a narcissist, etc and say it's because the dems didn't do enough to get my vote? What did he do to get the vote? Other than lie?

 

[UNCatTech]

I think O’Brien was of the mind that Trump would win. So, by his calculation, he is in a better position now than he would’ve been had he endorsed Harris. He would’ve lost credibility with over half of his members and had no leverage with the incoming administration. At least now, he has something.

I still think it’s stupid that he didn’t endorse the Democrats from a larger labor organizing perspective, but it makes sense for him from a pure politics perspective.

Ok, I guess that will have to play out. We will see how it works out.

Just as we will see how the country fairs in the next few years.

 

[UNCatTech]

Yes, Democrats should be held to the standard of being the party of labor and the working class. They have failed to live up to that, and now we are living with the consequences. That’s why it’s FAFO, if anything.

Trying and failing to live up to something is far better than never trying.

The pubs have never been the party of labor. During my years in church, surrounded by conservatives, believing some of the lies, before I started working to understand more myself, I recall all the talk about why we no longer needed unions, how there were labor laws now protecting people, etc.

 

[Paine]

Why, they made choices. They felt that he was the better choice in the race.

Even if the dems made mistakes or didn't run the perfect candidate, didn't market well, what ever, it comes down to being an informed voter.

The dems are not perfect, I don't agree with everything they do, propose, etc. BUT, trump is the worst candidate to run for office in my lifetime. How do people vote for someone who so clearly is not a leader, a liar, a narcissist, etc and say it's because the dems didn't do enough to get my vote? What did he do to get the vote? Other than lie?

I feel like I hear from a lot of people on the board about how dumb voters are, but somehow we also expect them to be 100% informed about aspects of political history that most people just don’t know about or bother to care about, even ones who vote for Democrats.

In an environment where people feel like they have no say in their economic life, they are going to turn to cultural issues. Republicans are closer to the median voter on cultural issues than Democrats right now. Democrats cannot advance social justice while being out of power, and the best way to get into power is to hit Trump from the left on economics while moderating cultural stances around identity.

 

[Paine]

Trying and failing to live up to something is far better than never trying.

The pubs have never been the party of labor. During my years in church, surrounded by conservatives, believing some of the lies, before I started working to understand more myself, I recall all the talk about why we no longer needed unions, how there were labor laws now protecting people, etc.

I agree. They never have been the party of labor and never will be. That’s why them increasing their share of votes among working class and low income people is incredibly concerning to me.

 

[UNCatTech]

I feel like I hear from a lot of people on the board about how dumb voters are, but somehow we also expect them to be 100% informed about aspects of political history that most people just don’t know about or bother to care about, even ones who vote for Democrats.

In an environment where people feel like they have no say in their economic life, they are going to turn to cultural issues. Republicans are closer to the median voter on cultural issues than Democrats right now. Democrats cannot advance social justice while being out of power, and the best way to get into power is to hit Trump from the left on economics while moderating cultural stances around identity.

I don't believe I said dumb. I believe that many voters are very uninformed.

I don't consider myself above average intelligence. I believe that I am pretty well informed because I put some effort into it. I don't watch TV and get my information from adds or news shows that are clearly biased. People have a choice, they can choose to put in some effort to understand how candidates might impact them.

I know many very smart people that voted for trump. Most of whom when I talk with them about it really don't care about politics, they have simply always voted republican.

 

[Healing]

Democrats rightly need to be held to a higher standard on labor issues than Republicans. No one expects the Republicans to do the right thing on labor, so they get extra credit even when they’re just paying lip service. That’s just the truth, especially for Teamsters since they seem to lean conservative on cultural issues.

I can't disagree, here. I hold my more intelligent, empathetic, and harder working friends, family, and colleagues to higher standards than the deadbeats, coattailers, intentionally ignorant, untrustworthy, and self victimizers. I also agree with the premise that Dems should drop explicit identity politics for human and labor rights messaging.

Also, Paine, you can't rationally believe that a Sean O'Brien thread, on this board, would result in anything short of a vociferous attack of O'Brien. He is a terrible messenger for this moment. For many, he's the avatar representing the turncoats that tipped the election to fascists - irrespective of the reality.

I think a thread titled Faiz Shakir could've deflected some of the immediate focus on O'Brien.

Faiz Shakir on Ezra Klein

 

[UNCatTech]

I feel like I hear from a lot of people on the board about how dumb voters are, but somehow we also expect them to be 100% informed about aspects of political history that most people just don’t know about or bother to care about, even ones who vote for Democrats.

In an environment where people feel like they have no say in their economic life, they are going to turn to cultural issues. Republicans are closer to the median voter on cultural issues than Democrats right now. Democrats cannot advance social justice while being out of power, and the best way to get into power is to hit Trump from the left on economics while moderating cultural stances around identity.

True, the dems cannot get anything done if they cannot get elected.

I guess it falls into cultural issues, but LBGTQ rights are very important to me. I have a gay daughter that's worried that her marriage may be nullified now. I know trans people that simply want to live their best lives, even if they cannot dominate sports. I know men that simply like to dress up, and because they choose to dress as a woman instead of a robot or a cartoon character, it becomes the abomination of drag instead of cosplay.

These things are important to me, as well as the economy for everyone. I hate reading stories about people suffering financially in such a rich country. I want better for everyone. Having a good work ethic and being willing to put in the effort in a job should be worth more than it seems to be in the US.

 

[Paine]

I can't disagree, here. I hold my more intelligent, empathetic, and harder working friends, family, and colleagues to higher standards than the deadbeats, coattailers, intentionally ignorant, untrustworthy, and self victimizers. I also agree with the premise that Dems should drop explicit identity politics for human and labor rights messaging.

Also, Paine, you can't rationally believe that a Sean O'Brien thread, on this board, would result in anything short of a vociferous attack of O'Brien. He is a terrible messenger for this moment. For many, he's the avatar representing the turncoats that tipped the election to fascists - irrespective of the reality.

I think a thread titled Faiz Shakir could've deflected some of the immediate focus on O'Brien.

Faiz Shakir on Ezra Klein

Part of the reason I chose O’Brien is because I knew it would be somewhat provocative. I’m much closer to Faiz Shakir than I am Sean O’Brien, but people have got to realize we need Teamsters and other working class men in order to win elections. If someone like Faiz can realize this, then a ton of other Democrats should be able to.

 

[Paine]

True, the dems cannot get anything done if they cannot get elected.

I guess it falls into cultural issues, but LBGTQ rights are very important to me. I have a gay daughter that's worried that her marriage may be nullified now. I know trans people that simply want to live their best lives, even if they cannot dominate sports. I know men that simply like to dress up, and because they choose to dress as a woman instead of a robot or a cartoon character, it becomes the abomination of drag instead of cosplay.

These things are important to me, as well as the economy for everyone. I hate reading stories about people suffering financially in such a rich country. I want better for everyone. Having a good work ethic and being willing to put in the effort in a job should be worth more than it seems to be in the US.

Just to clarify, I don’t think Dems should abandon rights for trans people and gay people. Rather, I think they should advance a universalist vision that includes uplifting everyone economically. Only by doing that can we advance the cause for gay and trans rights as well. We’ve learned that an over focus on individual identities is detrimental to the overall political project.