Should lies be protected as free speech?

[chrissteel]

What do you do about government lies about disinformation

Zuckerberg tells Rogan FBI warning prompted Biden laptop story censorship

In an interview with Joe Rogan, Mark Zuckerberg says the story was flagged after an FBI warning.

www.bbc.com

Mark Zuckerberg says Facebook restricting a story about Joe Biden's son during the 2020 election was based on FBI misinformation warnings.
The New York Post alleged leaked emails from Hunter Biden's laptop showed the then vice-president was helping his son's business dealings in Ukraine.
Facebook and Twitter restricted sharing of the article, before reversing course amid allegations of censorship.
Zuckerberg said that getting the decision wrong "sucks".
Zuckerberg told Rogan: "The background here is that the FBI came to us - some folks on our team - and was like 'hey, just so you know, you should be on high alert. We thought there was a lot of Russian propaganda in the 2016 election, we have it on notice that basically there's about to be some kind of dump that's similar to that'."

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Trump has absolutely been elected twice BECAUSE of lies, not in spite of them. Trump, for all his failings, recognizes that a huge portion of the American electorate is going to vote for the nominee of their preferred party no matter who that nominee is. Hell, I'm guilty. I'd have voted for Biden this time around even though I screamed for months that he had no business running and is clearly fading fast. The people who are that firmly entrenched are banked votes. Period. That is true for both parties.

What Trump did that changed the dynamic is to motivate a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't vote at all to vote for him because he says what they want to hear. The lies. They voted FOR the lies. They love the lies. They embrace the lies. They want the lies and they depend on the lies.

That's the Trump margin of victory.

Yeah. When I wrote that I knew it was going to be off but I couldn't think of a better way to say it. In one sense the guys that believe the lies are what put him over the top but in the other sense, the guys that didn't believe the lies put him over the top. He needed both sets of voters. It just depends which subset you think was going to vote for any Republican and which ones he was able to sway.

My point was that I don't think getting people to believe a bunch of lies is really driving Trump's success. It's getting elected in spite of the lies. So if that's the case, do we want to combat the lies or would we be better off offering solutions on the things that are getting Trump his voters that are real concerns?

 

[chrissteel]

I'm kind of okay with this. I don't think misinformation is good for our democracy. I just don't think government censorship is the the right way to address it.

Right answer

 

[ZenMode]

Is this the point where you’re just intentionally posting lies to the dishonesty thread because you think it’s ironically amusing or something?

I edited my post, but not because I don't believe there was something else going on with what Biden did. Of all the countries to take an interest in, specifically at such micro level that it relates to the top federal prosecutor, it seems incredibly coincidental that it was the country where his son worked.

 

[lawtig02]

I edited my post, but not because I don't believe there was something else going on with what Biden did. Of all the countries to take an interest in, specifically at such micro level that it relates to the top federal prosecutor, it seems incredibly coincidental that it was the country where his son worked.

This is literally the point of this thread. You believe those things because you have been exposed to vast amounts of disinformation that has no basis in fact. It’s BY FAR the biggest issue we’re facing in our country today. Even smart people like you are having your minds filled with absolute garbage, and you don’t even know it.

 

[chrissteel]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

 

[superrific]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Not going to happen, because they weren't wrong. Not a hoax. Also, not going to engage this trolling.

 

[lawtig02]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Just one after another, you guys are proving the point of this thread. Just unbelievable to me how many Americans have been deceived by the right wing disinformation machine.

 

[SnoopRob]

Chicken and the egg, though. The Republicans got so addicted to lying because they paid no price for it. You're right -- there's a large number of people who don't care about truth. That would typically be considered a reason to regulate, not a reason not to. That's why we have consumer protections instead of just relying on the marketplace to deter bad actors. It's why we have zoning. It's why we have class actions. It's why we have criminal penalties for corporate insiders who say false things to investors.

And why are Americans unable to manage what other countries have done? What if we start with a criminal law against Holocaust denial. That has proven workable in virtually every country that has tried it, to the best of my knowledge.

Republicans didn't get addicted, they actively chose and still choose an "alternative reality" because it works best for them. They didn't accidentally fall into the issue, they specifically designed it. They intentionally tore down a reasonably neutral media and instead pushed all of their folks to only pay attention to propaganda networks of Republican design. They intentionally undercut experts because those experts routinely told them their ideas had negative real world repercussions and instead created an entire ecosystem of fake experts that only report what Republicans desire. They intentionally dismantled governmental agencies and initiatives that had the potential to solve the country's problems in ways they did not approve. It's not truly a chicken-and-egg problem as much as it is a refusal by one of the major problems to commit to truth and facts over their preferred policies by refusing to acknowledge truths/facts inconvenient to them.

You list all of the places where we have regulation to protect folks from market problems....but every place you mention is a place that Republicans have tried to either remove governmental powers or to neuter those powers as much as possible. There is no way that laws, agencies, or initiatives around protecting "truth and facts" would be any different.

Part of the difference for the US is that we are a far more individualistic society that places a lower value on cooperation than many of the Western European countries you're comparing us to. But the big part of the difference is that one of our 2 main parties sees such actions and efforts as against their aims and therefore fight against it every way they can.

 

[chrissteel]

At least a lot of russian collusion disinformation some by the media and never corrected

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Just one after another, you guys are proving the point of this thread. Just unbelievable to me how many Americans have been deceived by the right wing disinformation machine.

And honestly, I think it's proving the exact opposite of what he wanted out of this thread. We can't really trust the government to determine what is lies and what is not. You'd have some of these hyper-partisan left or right-wing folks calling everyone they disagree with a troll and saying that's clearly a lie that we need to protect the American public from. No thanks.

 

[Bobfripp]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Yes, the left was wrong about the Russia collusion story. I speak on behalf of lefties everywhere .

All Mueller (a Pub btw) did was head up an investigation into possible collusion, and in the end the Mueller team found no significant collusion. That's what investigations are for. You find something substantial during the investigation, you indict (Manafort anyone). You don't find something substantial, no charges are filed.

But I don't recall the 'left' making careers out of the investigation. Most of what I recall is Trump complaining about it non-stop - and I mean NON STOP - while the Mueller investigation was ongoing. That gave the impression to the MAGA crowd that the Libs were obsessed about it, when really it was just Trump that was obsessed about it.

 

[SnoopRob]

All Mueller (a Pub btw) did was head up an investigation into possible collusion, and in the end the Mueller team found no significant collusion.

That's inaccurate.

Mueller found that folks in and around the Trump campaign were actively engaged with Russian actors to benefit Trump and his campaign.

What Mueller could not show was that Trump and folks with his campaign had actively conspired with Russian actors as Russian actors took actions to affect the outcome of the US election. (Collusion isn't an actual crime, the charges would have had to be conspiracy charges.) One reason that Mueller could not prove this was because Trump and those around him actively fought handing over any and all information they could that could have shown such a conspiracy had existed and were successful in thwarting the investigation in significant ways. Another reason is that conspiracy charges require direct action by Trump and his folks in very specific ways that aren't met by Trump and his folks merely meeting with, knowing of, and providing tacit approval of Russian actions but instead require direct participation by Trump and his campaign people that was easy to avoid while also seeking and accepting Russian assistance.

 

[Bobfripp]

That's inaccurate.

Mueller found that folks in and around the Trump campaign were actively engaged with Russian actors to benefit Trump and his campaign.

What Mueller could not show was that Trump and folks with his campaign had actively conspired with Russian actors as Russian actors took actions to affect the outcome of the US election. (Collusion isn't an actual crime, the charges would have had to be conspiracy charges.) One reason that Mueller could not prove this was because Trump and those around him actively fought handing over any and all information they could that could have shown such a conspiracy had existed and were successful in thwarting the investigation in significant ways. Another reason is that conspiracy charges require direct action by Trump and his folks in very specific ways that aren't met by Trump and his folks merely meeting with, knowing of, and providing tacit approval of Russian actions but instead require direct participation by Trump and his campaign people that was easy to avoid while also seeking and accepting Russian assistance.

Fair enough. So no conspiracy then rather than no collusion?

 

[SnoopRob]

Fair enough. So no conspiracy then rather than no collusion?

In essence, yes.

Mueller showed that there was evidence that Trump & his campaign folks were interested in and took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election, but no significant evidence that showed that Trump and his friends actually worked directly with the Russians on those actions.

 

[farce©]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Read the Mueller Report and get back to me. I don’t mean Bill Barr’s Cliff Notes, I mean the full unabridged Mueller Report.

But as you said, you don’t really want to hear about it, do you?

 

[superrific]

And honestly, I think it's proving the exact opposite of what he wanted out of this thread. We can't really trust the government to determine what is lies and what is not. You'd have some of these hyper-partisan left or right-wing folks calling everyone they disagree with a troll and saying that's clearly a lie that we need to protect the American public from. No thanks.

1. I didn't want anything out of the thread except good discussion.
2. Absolutely nobody is talking about the government "determining" what is lies or not -- not, at least, as you mean the term "government" here. The judiciary is part of the government. The judiciary's job is to make findings of fact.
3. Every single day, somewhere in America , a court decides what is and isn't true. I suppose not weekends or holidays. Every fraud prosecution requires the government to prove something is a lie. Most securities fraud actions. Perjury. If you don't think courts can make those determinations, the cat's long been out of that bag.
4. If you think it's OK for the courts to make truth determinations in fraud cases, then think of disinformation as political fraud and you can readily see why it is not the dystopia you imagine;
5. The government also makes truth determinations in many regulatory contexts. Many environmental protection statutes or regulations require companies (or state actors) to do something "to the extent feasible." Well, the EPA visits the company, finds that the thing isn't done, and initiates an enforcement action. The company shows up and says, "that's not feasible." The EPA says it is. Then the ALJs within the EPA make a finding as to feasibility, which is to say the ALJ determines that one of those statements was accurate and the other was not. Again, this happens every day.

Now, if you'd like to explain why determinations of accuracy as to political misinformation is so categorically different than these other truth determinations, then your strident and shrill complaint might yet have some validity. Or, if you prefer, you can tell us why the government shouldn't be doing all this stuff it is doing, uncontroversially, for a very long time.

See, this is what it means to think something through. You have to think it all the way through. You don't stop at the first bump you encounter. An intellectual doesn't throw up his hands like that. OMG has anyone ever thought that it's hard to determine truth? Huh, you ever thought of that? I'm super-smart and I just know that it's hard to determine truth, so there.

 

[ZenMode]

This is literally the point of this thread. You believe those things because you have been exposed to vast amounts of disinformation that has no basis in fact. It’s BY FAR the biggest issue we’re facing in our country today. Even smart people like you are having your minds filled with absolute garbage, and you don’t even know it.

I wish it were that easy. I wish people were always honest and forthcoming with the reasons for their actions.

Unfortunately, they aren't and not all liars are the George Santos/Donald Trump type of liars, where they lie so openly and so often that it's impossible to miss. When you're talking about politicians who've ascended to the highest levels of politics, you're talking about people who are often thinking 5 steps ahead, know how to walk the line between honesty and dishonesty by making it appear as though their intentions are pure. It's also very cut-throat and there's lots of "keeping score". "Remember when you didn't help me out here? Well, I'm not helping you now."

Did W invade Iraq because he truly thought there were WMDs and they were training terrorists or did he want revenge for the assassination attempt on his dad? Maybe it was both? Well, we know now that there were very likely no WMDs and lots of countries train terrorists, so is it just a coincidence that the country that tried to kill his dad was targeted? Possibly. Possibly not

How many countries has the US leveraged foreign aid to have one individual removed from office? Of all the countries we provide foreign aid to, Ukraine? Is one politician in Ukraine really worth our time and attention? Maybe, but it's very coincidental, in my opinion.

People are often good at spotting these situations/coincidences when they're happening in the other party, but less so when it's their party, IMO.

 

[rodoheel]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Have you read the Mueller Report? I mean the actual report, not just news summaries of it?

 

[ZenMode]

Have you read the Mueller Report? I mean the actual report, not just news summaries of it?

I assume you've read it? What are your thoughts on this portion:
"....the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."