Should lies be protected as free speech?

[lawtig02]

I assume you've read it? What are your thoughts on this portion:
"....the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

Snoop addressed that thoroughly just a few posts ago.

 

[lawtig02]

I wish it were that easy. I wish people were always honest and forthcoming with the reasons for their actions.

Unfortunately, they aren't and not all liars are the George Santos/Donald Trump type of liars, where they lie so openly and so often that it's impossible to miss. When you're talking about politicians who've ascended to the highest levels of politics, you're talking about people who are often thinking 5 steps ahead, know how to walk the line between honesty and dishonesty by making it appear as though their intentions are pure. It's also very cut-throat and there's lots of "keeping score". "Remember when you didn't help me out here? Well, I'm not helping you now."

Did W invade Iraq because he truly thought there were WMDs and they were training terrorists or did he want revenge for the assassination attempt on his dad? Maybe it was both? Well, we know now that there were very likely no WMDs and lots of countries train terrorists, so is it just a coincidence that the country that tried to kill his dad was targeted? Possibly. Possibly not

How many countries has the US leveraged foreign aid to have one individual removed from office? Of all the countries we provide foreign aid to, Ukraine? Is one politician in Ukraine really worth our time and attention? Maybe, but it's very coincidental, in my opinion.

People are often good at spotting these situations/coincidences when they're happening in the other party, but less so when it's their party, IMO.

Well, it’s a good thing we don’t have to guess on this one since it was investigated more thoroughly than just about any foreign policy act in recent memory. The voluminous evidence obtained by both parties shows:

1. The Obama administration’s decision to link the loan to Ukraine with the removal of Shokin was consistent with Commerce’s intent for the loan, and with the priorities of the EU and, most importantly, both parties in the US Congress.

2. The allegations that Biden received a bribe were manufactured by a felon who has admitted they were false, and appear to have been coordinated by people linked to Trump’s 2020 campaign.

Now you know! So you don’t have to keep spreading these lies around the message boards you frequent going forward!

 

[finesse]

Well, it’s a good thing we don’t have to guess on this one since it was investigated more thoroughly than just about any foreign policy act in recent memory. The voluminous evidence obtained by both parties shows:

1. The Obama administration’s decision to link the loan to Ukraine with the removal of Shokin was consistent with Commerce’s intent for the loan, and with the priorities of the EU and, most importantly, both parties in the US Congress.

2. The allegations that Biden received a bribe were manufactured by a felon who has admitted they were false, and appear to have been coordinated by people linked to Trump’s 2020 campaign.

Now you know! So you don’t have to keep spreading these lies around the message boards you frequent going forward!

He seems to have short term memory issues. I'll bet he asks some version of this very soon.

I blame the Farm Bill of 2018.

 

[ZenMode]

Snoop addressed that thoroughly just a few posts ago.

It took two posts but he eventually got to the crux of part one of Mueller's findings and restates what Mueller said:

"Mueller showed that there was evidence that Trump & his campaign folks were interested in and took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election, but no significant evidence that showed that Trump and his friends actually worked directly with the Russians on those actions."

In other words, there is currently no reason to take the position that there was conspiracy (legal) or collusion, right?

 

[lawtig02]

It took two posts but he eventually got to the crux of part one of Mueller's findings and restates what Mueller said:

"Mueller showed that there was evidence that Trump & his campaign folks were interested in and took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election, but no significant evidence that showed that Trump and his friends actually worked directly with the Russians on those actions."

In other words, there is currently no reason to take the position that there was conspiracy (legal) or collusion, right?

Snoop’s posts — both of them — were as clear as can be. If you can’t or choose not to understand them, that’s on you.

 

[ZenMode]

Snoop’s posts — both of them — were as clear as can be. If you can’t or choose not to understand them, that’s on you.

It seems to come down to either accepting or not accepting the investigations findings. If the most powerful investigative body on the planet says no conspiracy could be established, why take a contrary position?

 

[ZenMode]

Well, it’s a good thing we don’t have to guess on this one since it was investigated more thoroughly than just about any foreign policy act in recent memory. The voluminous evidence obtained by both parties shows:

1. The Obama administration’s decision to link the loan to Ukraine with the removal of Shokin was consistent with Commerce’s intent for the loan, and with the priorities of the EU and, most importantly, both parties in the US Congress.

2. The allegations that Biden received a bribe were manufactured by a felon who has admitted they were false, and appear to have been coordinated by people linked to Trump’s 2020 campaign.

Now you know! So you don’t have to keep spreading these lies around the message boards you frequent going forward!

"Well, it’s a good thing we don’t have to guess on this one since it was investigated......"

So was the Trump/Russian conspiracy, yet you hesitate to accept the findings of some investigations and not others. Why?

 

[finesse]

It seems to come down to either accepting or not accepting the investigations findings. If the most powerful investigative body on the planet says no conspiracy could be established, why take a contrary position?

What's the 100 meter time for those goals posts? This started out as collusion and the definitions, both practical and legal definitions have been discussed.

 

[rodoheel]

I assume you've read it? What are your thoughts on this portion:
"....the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

That sentence means exactly what it says. Many Trumpers interpret that sentence to say that the investigation determined that no collusion occurred; but that, of course, is not what that says. Which I'm sure you understand.

In broad strokes, the Mueller Report confirmed that there absolutely was a Russian effort to influence the election in Trump's direction (as part of the larger Russian objective of undermining public confidence in US elections) and that Russian assets absolutely made contact with the Trump campaign as part of that effort. However, what the investigation could not determine is whether (1) Trump and other campaign officials knew they were working with Russian intelligence, or (2) Trump and his campaign officials were such huge idiots that they didn't know that they were being manipulated by Russian intelligence (and/or simply didn't care to find out).

 

[wmheel1287]

It took two posts but he eventually got to the crux of part one of Mueller's findings and restates what Mueller said:

"Mueller showed that there was evidence that Trump & his campaign folks were interested in and took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election, but no significant evidence that showed that Trump and his friends actually worked directly with the Russians on those actions."

In other words, there is currently no reason to take the position that there was conspiracy (legal) or collusion, right?

What meaning do you glean from "took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election"?

 

[farce©]

That sentence means exactly what it says. Many Trumpers interpret that sentence to say that the investigation determined that no collusion occurred; but that, of course, is not what that says. Which I'm sure you understand.

In broad strokes, the Mueller Report confirmed that there absolutely was a Russian effort to influence the election in Trump's direction (as part of the larger Russian objective of undermining public confidence in US elections) and that Russian assets absolutely made contact with the Trump campaign as part of that effort. However, what the investigation could not determine is whether (1) Trump and other campaign officials knew they were working with Russian intelligence, or (2) Trump and his campaign officials were such huge idiots that they didn't know that they were being manipulated by Russian intelligence (and/or simply didn't care to find out).

And let’s not forget the obstruction of justice Mueller faced from Trump and his allies. Although Mueller stated "We did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime” he also indicated the policy of disallowing indictments of sitting Presidents rendered the point moot. He also left the door open for future indictments based on what happened.

 

[ZenMode]

What meaning do you glean from "took actions toward having the Russians act on Trump's behalf in the election"?

One thing that comes to mind is telling Russian hackers to hack Hillary's (?) email. Also from the report, some number of Trump's kids and campaign unknowingly interacted with the fake social media accounts.

But, ultimately, there was no reason to believe that Trump & Co. conspired WITH Russia to orchestrate the social media interference.

That was the primary takeaway from volume 1.

As @farce© mentioned, volume 2 is a different story. It's baffling to me that he was never charged with obstruction. There seems to be sufficient evidence.

 

[heelinhell]

How about the left acknowledge how wrong they were about the russia collusion story. When will media talking heads admit they made careers and millions pushing that hoax. Until 4 years of constant misinformation supported by the FBI is dealt with truthfully i really don't want to hear about it

Respectfully, I would recommend you take time to read the Mueller report and the republican led Senate Intelligence Committee report

https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl

Press | Intelligence Committee

www.intelligence.senate.gov

 

[Centerpiece]

I think all speech is assumed to be Constitutionally protected until it is deemed to not be protected by the Supreme Court. As you mentioned, things like slander, libel, defamation.....

I could start a website tomorrow dedicated to nothing but lies and, as long as it didn't legally harm anyone, it would be protected. I could claim the Earth is flat, the 2020 election was stolen, there's an epidemic of pet-eating Haitians in Springfield.

I don't want the United States to turn into a Western European country where you can be fined or jailed for simply saying things that are divisive, even though you aren't calling for violence.

Conversely, I would love for the US to be converted into a western European style country. I lived in Western Europe for seven years. I really enjoyed living in and traveling to all of those countries. Belgium, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Holland, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal , Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland. Loved em all.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I was raising this issue in 2016 and essentially got kicked off of the ZZL for it. The Republicans may have owned the lies in the past few years, but the Democrats ran with their own lies with the BLM movement (remember "hands up, don't shoot?"). Even after their lies were exposed, they doubled down. Kamala Harris posted on Twitter that Mike Brown was murdered by Darren Wilson long after the DOJ conclusively proved allegation to be false. No one cared about the facts because they felt good about the message.

Fast forward to 2020, and Republicans start lying about COVID and the vaccines and the election. Truth suddenly matters again to the Democrats. Truth no longer matters to the Republicans. The cycle starts anew. And the only thing that really matters is that my side has to be right and your side has to be wrong. For those of us not blindly loyal to a side, it is frustrating.

 

[Centerpiece]

I’m a proud, independent, unaffiliated registered voter and I certainly don’t hold blind loyalty to any one side in terms of an American political party. However I do know for a fact, and feel in my heart, which of the two political parties have been guilty of more “lies” and which side follows - unequivocally I might had - a notorious and unabashed liar.
That side is/are the Maga Republicans.

For the record: I shook Richard Nixon’s hand. My parents were invited to, and attended Reagan’s first inauguration. My family’s Republican credentials are above reproach, at least in certain terms.

Fuck trump and all those poor misguided souls who voted for him. They’ve been lied to time and again. Bless their hearts.

 

[superrific]

I was raising this issue in 2016 and essentially got kicked off of the ZZL for it. The Republicans may have owned the lies in the past few years, but the Democrats ran with their own lies with the BLM movement (remember "hands up, don't shoot?"). Even after their lies were exposed, they doubled down. Kamala Harris posted on Twitter that Mike Brown was murdered by Darren Wilson long after the DOJ conclusively proved allegation to be false. No one cared about the facts because they felt good about the message.

Fast forward to 2020, and Republicans start lying about COVID and the vaccines and the election. Truth suddenly matters again to the Democrats. Truth no longer matters to the Republicans. The cycle starts anew. And the only thing that really matters is that my side has to be right and your side has to be wrong. For those of us not blindly loyal to a side, it is frustrating.

Just stop. I don't know what Kamala Harris did or didn't tweet, but there is a huge difference between posting something not factual about a specific incident and lying through your teeth on bigger points. Whether Mike Brown murdered Darren Wilson has zero effect on your life. It doesn't matter in the slightest. However, it does matter a lot if the GOP lies its way into a mass deportation. That's about a billion times more significant.

Also, the essence of both-siding is to ignore magnitudes. For every Dem lie, I can show you 20 GOP ones. Only the GOP has committed itself to a political program of untruth. It's the difference between Dean Smith cursing at the refs on occasion and Mike K cursing at them multiple times per minute. If you ignore that and say, "both sides" then you're also going to have to admit that Dean Smith and Coach K were both unclassy.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Just stop. I don't know what Kamala Harris did or didn't tweet, but there is a huge difference between posting something not factual about a specific incident and lying through your teeth on bigger points. Whether Mike Brown murdered Darren Wilson has zero effect on your life. It doesn't matter in the slightest. However, it does matter a lot if the GOP lies its way into a mass deportation. That's about a billion times more significant.

Also, the essence of both-siding is to ignore magnitudes. For every Dem lie, I can show you 20 GOP ones. Only the GOP has committed itself to a political program of untruth. It's the difference between Dean Smith cursing at the refs on occasion and Mike K cursing at them multiple times per minute. If you ignore that and say, "both sides" then you're also going to have to admit that Dean Smith and Coach K were both unclassy.

Except the lies about Mike Brown and Darren Wilson actually had an impact on my life, as they directly led to rioting (and deaths) and the rise of the BLM movement which in turn led to further rioting in places all across North Carolina from 2016-2020. I was in the middle of one of those riots, as was one of my family members was caught in the middle of another and had to evacuate from her downtown apartment in the middle of the night. Additionally, The subsequent rise in crime that came as a result of this movement due to people abandoning law enforcement en masse has had tremendous ripple effects in nearly every community.

As far as your second paragraph is concerned, you can't say "I'm going to completely lie about X in order to pander to my base and shore up some votes" and then criticize your opponents for doing the same thing.

 

[ZenMode]

Except the lies about Mike Brown and Darren Wilson actually had an impact on my life, as they directly led to rioting (and deaths) and the rise of the BLM movement which in turn led to further rioting in places all across North Carolina from 2016-2020. I was in the middle of one of those riots, as was one of my family members was caught in the middle of another and had to evacuate from her downtown apartment in the middle of the night. Additionally, The subsequent rise in crime that came as a result of this movement due to people abandoning law enforcement en masse has had tremendous ripple effects in nearly every community.

As far as your second paragraph is concerned, you can't say "I'm going to completely lie about X in order to pander to my base and shore up some votes" and then criticize your opponents for doing the same thing.

Your post brings to mind a concept that I see frequently in the activist left movement - You have to break a few eggs to make an equity omelette. In other words, if a few people are wrongly fired from their jobs because they say all lives matter or there are only two biological genders, that's ok. If a few business owners are looted or lose their business entirely because of a lie about Michael Brown and hands up, that's okay, too.

When police stop policing the homeless, but the activist left continues to police our language, that's also okay.

Unfortunately for them, wokeness, cancel culture and identity politics has now brought the worst person in history into the presidency... again.

 

[Healing]

Except the lies about Mike Brown and Darren Wilson actually had an impact on my life, as they directly led to rioting (and deaths) and the rise of the BLM movement which in turn led to further rioting in places all across North Carolina from 2016-2020. I was in the middle of one of those riots, as was one of my family members was caught in the middle of another and had to evacuate from her downtown apartment in the middle of the night. Additionally, The subsequent rise in crime that came as a result of this movement due to people abandoning law enforcement en masse has had tremendous ripple effects in nearly every community.

As far as your second paragraph is concerned, you can't say "I'm going to completely lie about X in order to pander to my base and shore up some votes" and then criticize your opponents for doing the same thing.

Which riot