St.Andrews/Now Limestone

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Saint Augustine in Raleigh is going through similar issues. They are appealing a loss of accreditation. Their enrollment has shrunk from 1100 to 200 in two years, have laid off a ton of staff and they have significant debt. They also have the good fortune of being in Raleigh near downtown so their land has substantially increased in value. They may be able to pull out of the death spiral but they may have waited too long to start.

www.highereddive.com

Saint Augustine’s University loses appeal to keep accreditation

Officials at the historically Black college are now contesting the decision to strip its accreditation via arbitration — a process it's been through before.
www.highereddive.com www.highereddive.com
 
donbosco said:
Going out of business.

What becomes of the infrastructure? The students? The athletes? The coaches? The faculty? The fans and alumni?


Home - St. Andrews University

Discover St. Andrews University, a premier institution for higher education. Learn about our programs, accreditation, and community of alumni.
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Had a friend who went to Salem College 10 years ago. She became a teacher making $35,000 a year with 135,000 in student loan debt.
 
uncmba said:
Had a friend who went to Salem College 10 years ago. She became a teacher making $35,000 a year with 135,000 in student loan debt.
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Ouch. Although the story isn't great for people going to public school either. 4 years at UNCG with food and housing will cost you about $75,000 and starting teachers today make $42,000 a year.
 
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uncmba said:
Had a friend who went to Salem College 10 years ago. She became a teacher making $35,000 a year with 135,000 in student loan debt.
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That's probably one of the reasons why Salem has really struggled since around 2019 with declining enrollment and financial issues. They seem to be doing somewhat better, but I know some people connected to the school and whatever the college's public statements they're still not financially healthy or out of the woods by any means.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
You might get lucky. If there are less potential customers, colleges are going to have to compete harder for the customers that are available. You might get more aid.

Or they might be broke and you'll get less.
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Unfortunately, as this thread suggests, there will be fewer schools for those fewer students. And the elite schools aren’t competing on price. They have no shortage of highly qualified applicants. 20 years ago, the average acceptance rate of the Ivies was about 18% (Cornell was ~30). Now they range from 3 to 6%. The list of schools with acceptance rates (RD) under 10% is shockingly long (includes NYU, Boston U, UCLA, Emory, Bowdoin, Pomona, Swarthmore, Colby, Northeastern, Tulane, UMiami).
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Saint Augustine in Raleigh is going through similar issues. They are appealing a loss of accreditation. Their enrollment has shrunk from 1100 to 200 in two years, have laid off a ton of staff and they have significant debt. They also have the good fortune of being in Raleigh near downtown so their land has substantially increased in value. They may be able to pull out of the death spiral but they may have waited too long to start.

www.highereddive.com

Saint Augustine’s University loses appeal to keep accreditation

Officials at the historically Black college are now contesting the decision to strip its accreditation via arbitration — a process it's been through before.
www.highereddive.com www.highereddive.com
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I’m shocked that St Augustine’s hasn’t closed yet.
 
HeWhoWearsCarolinaBlue said:
I’m shocked that St Augustine’s hasn’t closed yet.
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I do think a lot of these private all female, and historically black universities are going to continue to close. There will continue to be a market and the best ones will stay open but I think students are voting with their admissions applications. Most want a more mainstream experience.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Unfortunately, as this thread suggests, there will be fewer schools for those fewer students. And the elite schools aren’t competing on price. They have no shortage of highly qualified applicants. 20 years ago, the average acceptance rate of the Ivies was about 18% (Cornell was ~30). Now they range from 3 to 6%. The list of schools with acceptance rates (RD) under 10% is shockingly long (includes NYU, Boston U, UCLA, Emory, Bowdoin, Pomona, Swarthmore, Colby, Northeastern, Tulane, UMiami).
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How much of the acceptance rate numbers is a result of the fact that, as I understand it, kids can apply to as many schools as they want with the universal application? I think that's what it's called; I applied early acceptance to Carolina in 1999 and my kids are in elementary school, so I don't know much about the current application process.

Back in my day... it cost money to apply and very few kids would apply to an Ivy (or anywhere "good") without a realistic shot of getting in.
 
rebeltarheel0408 said:
. . .. Back in my day... it cost money to apply and very few kids would apply to an Ivy (or anywhere "good") without a realistic shot of getting in.
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Same here. When I was applying to college, I just assumed UNC was going to be way out of my price range. And I knew anywhere out of state would even further out of my price range. So, I figured that I should look at places like East Carolina, Wilmington, Pembroke. But just for [explicative deleted] and grins, I decided to find out how much UNC cost. I got a list of the tuition and fees per semester at every state-supported school in NC, now called the UNC System. They were all the same. Or if different, then just a few dollars different. I couldn't believe it. But it was true. So, I decided that if UNC costs exactly the same as all the other colleges, why not apply there. I did and I got accepted.
 
donbosco said:
IMG_8762.jpeg

Found.
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Very interesting!

Your board was $250 and tuition/fees was $239 per semester, so the cost of UNC before books and food was $978 per year. The CPI inflation calculator tells me that amounted to $5,477.47 in March 2025 dollars.

I don't have copies of the invoice, but I started ECU in fall of 1972, and tuition/fees and board was $251 per quarter, or $753 per year. That same inflation calculator says that is $5,747.22 in today's dollars. My mother sent me $20/week for food (which is $152.65 today) and with the spending money I saved from my summer job I made out just fine. Frosty mugs of draft beers were always 25¢ at the Elbo Room and between cooking in the dorm room and cheap eats at Newby's Sub Shop, I did just fine.
 
rebeltarheel0408 said:
How much of the acceptance rate numbers is a result of the fact that, as I understand it, kids can apply to as many schools as they want with the universal application? I think that's what it's called; I applied early acceptance to Carolina in 1999 and my kids are in elementary school, so I don't know much about the current application process.

Back in my day... it cost money to apply and very few kids would apply to an Ivy (or anywhere "good") without a realistic shot of getting in.
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The Common App is absolutely a factor in lower acceptance rates. Students are applying to more colleges and, as a result, even the Ivies are getting a much better applicant pool than they used to. Top schools can pick and choose to some extent.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
Maybe getting closer. They lost their 2nd appeal for accreditation. Now spending $1M, which presumably they will have to fundraise since they are broke, to sue the accreditation agency.

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www.newsobserver.com
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This is one of the areas I would hope we could find some common ground, gt. One of my closest friends graduated from a HBCU in Florida and is a huge advocate of that system. I've had many conversations with him over the years about whether it is (a) sustainable, and (b) better than a system in which disadvantaged students, who at least in the south are disproportionately black, are given preference at state universities.

He and I may never agree on the answer to those questions and that's fine. He's a brilliant man and I completely respect his view. But we DO agree on this -- the question is only relevant if disadvantaged students are given preference at state universities. Unfortunately, recent actions by the GOP and recent decisions by conservative judges, especially those in the majority on the Supreme Court, have effectively nullified that condition. Which means it's no longer a question of which option is best. It's now just the fact of the matter that (a) many HBCUs are not sustainable in the long term, and (b) state universities will be precluded from giving preference to disadvantaged students, who in the south at least are disproportionately black.

So here's where I hope we could reach some agreement. I would be willing to accept that the era of HBCUs may have run its course. But if they must disappear, then we MUST be able to provide preferences to disadvantaged students at state universities. And if legislation is needed to prevent courts from eliminating such preferences, then it is imperative that Congress and state legislatures act quickly and decisively.

Can we agree on that?
 
lawtig02 said:
This is one of the areas I would hope we could find some common ground, gt. One of my closest friends graduated from a HBCU in Florida and is a huge advocate of that system. I've had many conversations with him over the years about whether it is (a) sustainable, and (b) better than a system in which disadvantaged students, who at least in the south are disproportionately black, are given preference at state universities.

He and I may never agree on the answer to those questions and that's fine. He's a brilliant man and I completely respect his view. But we DO agree on this -- the question is only relevant if disadvantaged students are given preference at state universities. Unfortunately, recent actions by the GOP and recent decisions by conservative judges, especially those in the majority on the Supreme Court, have effectively nullified that condition. Which means it's no longer a question of which option is best. It's now just the fact of the matter that (a) many HBCUs are not sustainable in the long term, and (b) state universities will be precluded from giving preference to disadvantaged students, who in the south at least are disproportionately black.

So here's where I hope we could reach some agreement. I would be willing to accept that the era of HBCUs may have run its course. But if they must disappear, then we MUST be able to provide preferences to disadvantaged students at state universities. And if legislation is needed to prevent courts from eliminating such preferences, then it is imperative that Congress and state legislatures act quickly and decisively.

Can we agree on that?
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I don't think so. I think the reason that a lot of these HBCUs (and other small private liberal arts institutions) are failing is because no one wants to go to them anymore. Black kids look at their options and look at the cost/benefit of a private HBCU and would rather go to the mainstream school.

I'm just having a hard time connecting people not wanting to go to these HBCUs with a policy of favoring someone at other schools because of the color of their skin. Why should that matter? If a young woman doesn't want to go to Sweet Briar or a young white man doesn't want to go to Limestone, would we also give them favorable admissions preferences at schools that their credentials wouldn't allow them to get into?

It's possible that the ending of these racial preferences might help HBCUs. Kids that could get into a school before the Harvard decision might not be able to get into that school anymore so the HBCU is their next best option. I'm not sure if that's a good thing for anyone but people that make a living at HBCUs but it might be reality. Probably not but I guess it's possible.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I don't think so. I think the reason that a lot of these HBCUs (and other small private liberal arts institutions) are failing is because no one wants to go to them anymore. Black kids look at their options and look at the cost/benefit of a private HBCU and would rather go to the mainstream school.

I'm just having a hard time connecting people not wanting to go to these HBCUs with a policy of favoring someone at other schools because of the color of their skin. Why should that matter? If a young woman doesn't want to go to Sweet Briar or a young white man doesn't want to go to Limestone, would we also give them favorable admissions preferences at schools that their credentials wouldn't allow them to get into?

It's possible that the ending of these racial preferences might help HBCUs. Kids that could get into a school before the Harvard decision might not be able to get into that school anymore so the HBCU is their next best option. I'm not sure if that's a good thing for anyone but people that make a living at HBCUs but it might be reality. Probably not but I guess it's possible.
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You raise a good point. I was focusing on the public HBCUs, but that's only about half of them. I'd agree the private HBCUs will need to figure out their own path forward. Some, like Johnson C. Smith, may survive. In JCSU's case, that's because it's a beneficiary of the Duke Endowment, which is managing a truly extraordinary amount of assets. Other privates, like Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, etc. may also find a way to survive.

But what about the 50% that are public? NC Central? W-S State? Elizabeth City State? Fayetteville State? What do we do about the black kids who would otherwise go to those schools if they're forced to close? Can they get preference at UNC? Or at least at UNCW or ECU or UNCG? Or are they shit out of luck?

I promise, I'm open to any ideas about this. I'm at an age where college admissions and career opportunities are at the absolute front of my mind. I just want to be sure we're not fucking our disadvantaged communities even more than they've been historically fucked in order to free up more money for those of us who don't really need it.
 
You mention only Private HBCUs but that got me to thinking...

Private and Public HBCUs are split about 50/50 quite literally with 50 campuses of one and 49 campuses of the other. Fast Facts: Historically Black Colleges and Universities (667)

NC A&T is a pretty healthy institution at present and is the largest public HBCU in the nation. Florida A&M University, Praire View, and Tennessee State are also doing pretty well.

Of the private HBCUs, Howard would be tops, followed by Spelman, Morehouse, and Tuskegee.

I think, while all of those schools have smaller endowments compared to historically white schools, they are doing pretty well.
 
donbosco said:
You mention only Private HBCUs but that got me to thinking...

Private and Public HBCUs are split about 50/50 quite literally with 50 campuses of one and 49 campuses of the other. Fast Facts: Historically Black Colleges and Universities (667)

NC A&T is a pretty healthy institution at present and is the largest public HBCU in the nation. Florida A&M University, Praire View, and Tennessee State are also doing pretty well.

Of the private HBCUs, Howard would be tops, followed by Spelman, Morehouse, and Tuskegee.

I think, while all of those schools have smaller endowments compared to historically white schools, they are doing pretty well.
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Yeah. I think there's still a place for the best HBCU's, just like I think there is a place for the best women only and best smaller private liberal arts colleges but the marginal ones I think are dying because of lack of demand.
 
lawtig02 said:
You raise a good point. I was focusing on the public HBCUs, but that's only about half of them. I'd agree the private HBCUs will need to figure out their own path forward. Some, like Johnson C. Smith, may survive. In JCSU's case, that's because it's a beneficiary of the Duke Endowment, which is managing a truly extraordinary amount of assets. Other privates, like Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, etc. may also find a way to survive.

But what about the 50% that are public? NC Central? W-S State? Elizabeth City State? Fayetteville State? What do we do about the black kids who would otherwise go to those schools if they're forced to close? Can they get preference at UNC? Or at least at UNCW or ECU or UNCG? Or are they shit out of luck?

I promise, I'm open to any ideas about this. I'm at an age where college admissions and career opportunities are at the absolute front of my mind. I just want to be sure we're not fucking our disadvantaged communities even more than they've been historically fucked in order to free up more money for those of us who don't really need it.
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I would leave the public ones in place but not provide admissions preferences based on race either at HBCU's or at the mainstream universities. Folks can self select and that's fine. I still support admissions preferences based on economic inequality, just not race.
 
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