The Charlie Kirk Thread

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Calheel said:
Who cares what he was in the past? The issue is what motivated him to kill Charlie Kirk. Clearly it wasn’t that Kirk doesn’t hate Jews enough.
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1. It could affect predisposition to using a firearm to settle the issue.
2. Conservatives often sound like leftists when they experience an injustice to themselves. They don't care until that point. Does that mean they become leftists, or merely hypocrites or FAFOs?
 
superrific said:
What a bunch of bullshit. I suspect you will sidestep these questions, Ram, but let's try for kicks.

1. I think the largest group of people who are professional conversers are academics. They are overwhelmingly not conservative, and the majority are on the left. Do you agree with that? So right off the bat, our initial data point is that liberals, not conservatives, are the talkers.
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Agree.
superrific said:
2. Do you agree that the right-wingers are hostile to academia? It sure seems that way. Many right-wingers routinely express that academics are the enemy of the people or the country. I remember very well when that scumbag from the NRA said that. Trump has said it. Vance has said it. So second data point: conservatives do not like discourse.
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Some, but not all, are hostile to academia. I disagree that conservatives do not like discourse. Maher agrees and he's in the talk show business. He says he has no trouble booking conservative guests even though his audience will be overwhelmingly liberal. On the other hand, many liberal folks won't go near his show including Kamala - who refused his repeated requests to appear during the last election. Question: During the last two elections which candidates hid from the media and which candidate went everywhere and talked with everyone?
superrific said:
3. Which states are the ones putting certain subjects off limits for discussion? It's the red states. They are saying we can't talk about slavery, we have to paint American history in a positive light, we can't be negative about this country, etc. Is that talking? I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. So third data point. Do you contest this?
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Of course we can, and should, talk about slavery. It's history. But teach it in the proper context and don't teach it in a manner that America is uniquely evil in its acceptance of slavery for a part of its history. Slavery was universal and America spilled quite a bit of blood to end it. What about liberals banning Huckleberry Finn (can't talk about it) in schools due to the n word being used?
superrific said:
4. Most importantly, lying is not discourse. Lies are the opposite of discourse. Lies are the co-optation of discourse for purposes of violence. Since the GOP is addicted to lies -- surely you can't contest this -- then that would be a huge strike against the idea that conservatives are pro-discourse.

Since Charlie Kirk, like the vast majority of right-wingers, loved to lie, I would not say he was interested in discourse at all. Yes, he loved to talk. But he didn't love to debate -- he loved to talk at people, without regard to any shared basis of conversation.
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I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Libs tell the truth and Conservatives lie? Charlie most certainly loved to debate. He would put at the front of the line the liberals who disagreed with him. He had respectful debate with all types of people - including trans people, women in porn and on onlyfans and devil worshipers. I venture to say I've watched more Charlie Kirk content than anyone posting here so I speak from experience. Many of you had never heard of him and are now simply watching edited clips of his most outrageous statements edited by liberal content providers.
 
More interesting reporting (and I don’t know Klippenstein’s politics, but have been turned off because he advertises on Twitter):

www.kenklippenstein.com

Exclusive: Leaked Messages from Charlie Kirk Assassin

Accused shooter’s “politics” is not what government and media say
www.kenklippenstein.com www.kenklippenstein.com

I don’t think the kid was/is a Groyper, or had any other obvious left/right bent. The dearth of political posts on these Discord channels seem pretty telling.

That won’t stop the right wing outrage machine from using him (and any beef he had with Kirk’s obvious and outright anti-LGBTQ views) as a representative of “the left” and making excuses for attacks on their political enemies, both using the government, and outside of it.
 
Ramrouser said:
Agree.


Some, but not all, are hostile to academia. I disagree that conservatives do not like discourse. Maher agrees and he's in the talk show business. He says he has no trouble booking conservative guests even though his audience will be overwhelmingly liberal. On the other hand, many liberal folks won't go near his show including Kamala - who refused his repeated requests to appear during the last election. Question: During the last two elections which candidates hid from the media and which candidate went everywhere and talked with everyone?

Of course we can, and should, talk about slavery. It's history. But teach it in the proper context and don't teach it in a manner that America is uniquely evil in its acceptance of slavery for a part of its history. Slavery was universal and America spilled quite a bit of blood to end it. What about liberals banning Huckleberry Finn (can't talk about it) in schools due to the n word being used?


I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Libs tell the truth and Conservatives lie? Charlie most certainly loved to debate. He would put at the front of the line the liberals who disagreed with him. He had respectful debate with all types of people - including trans people, women in porn and on onlyfans and devil worshipers. I venture to say I've watched more Charlie Kirk content than anyone posting here so I speak from experience. Many of you had never heard of him and are now simply watching edited clips of his most outrageous statements edited by liberal content providers.
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1. I don't give a fuck what Maher has to say about that. Of course he can get conservative guests. Conservatives like nothing more than free publicity. They appear on CNN too and spout the crazy there. There is no actual evidence that Kamala refused to appear on Maher's show.

2. "Teach it in the proper context." So in other words, you don't want to have a discussion at all. What if the proper context is exactly how it is presented? What if American slavery was in fact uniquely evil? We are the only country that had to fight a war to end the practice, at least to my knowledge. We were the only country that held an ideal of equality among men and also condoned slavery. Slavery was not universal, and the spilling of blood cuts against you, not for you. Especially as a fucking Georgian. Georgia spilled no blood trying to end slavery.

3. It is beyond peradventure that today's GOP is addicted to lies. In fact, this entire discussion -- i.e. that the left is responsible for most violence in America -- is a bald-faced lie. They were eating the dogs, eating the cats was a lie. Biden's immigration policy was open borders is a lie. The trans agenda is a lie. I mean, I'm not going into it again. The factual record is incredibly clear. It's more common that they issue multiple different lies on an issue than they tell the truth the first time around. Far more common.

Fuck, their lawyers routinely lie to the courts.

If you're not going to agree about this basic fact, then there is no discourse to be had and that's your fault and not mine. There is no discourse without a shared reality.
 
Calheel said:
“I had enough of his hatred,” Robinson texted, referring to Charlie Kirk. “Some hate can’t be negotiated out.”
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There are tons of young, .5 transgender couples who loathe the hatred of a Christians but aren't liberal!!
 
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MOUNTAINH33L said:
JFC. MAGA media is going to go ape shit with this.
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This may sound very tinfoil hattish, but holy shit that text exchange looks totally made up; like a poorly written script. First of all, how did he know that law enforcement first got an old man and then interrogated someone wearing similar clothes?

Second, that’s A LOT of detailed information to be putting into that text exchange. Having such detailed texts seems weird to begin with (people don’t typically provide that kind of serial in text exchanges), but also seems weird considering it appears that for much of that text exchange he’s talking about how he is trying not to get caught. If he’s trying not to get caught, why he is so detailed with everything he did?

Third, it seems very unnatural and contrived and does not have the appearance of a “normal” text exchange. There’s a lot more detail and complete sentences and context than what goes into “normal” text exchanges. For example: Roommate: “Why?” Robinson: “Why did I do it?” [Then goes into detailed explanation]. And it’s even more odd considering the circumstances. That is, Robinson is essentially on the run/hiding out. And he’s not just providing details about what he did; he’s going into his family history.

Fourth, the use of the term “my old man.” Who actually talks like that anymore? Referring to one’s dad as “my old man” is pretty much something that’s just done in the movies these days; not out in the real world, and certainly not a thing among the younger generations.

Fifth, referring to the roommate as “my love” and “love” at the end of sentences. Sounds very unnatural to begin with, but even more so in texts and among 20-somethings.

It all just comes across as a very weird, inauthentic-looking read.
 
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Icky Mettle said:
This may sound very tinfoil hattish, but holy shit that text exchange looks totally made up; like a poorly written script. First of all, how did he know that law enforcement first got an old man and then interrogated someone wearing similar clothes?

Second, that’s A LOT of detailed information to be putting into that text exchange. Having such detailed texts seems weird to begin with (people don’t typically provide that kind of serial in text exchanges), but also seems weird considering it appears that for much of that text exchange he’s talking about how he is trying not to get caught. If he’s trying not to get caught, why he is so detailed with everything he did?

Third, it seems very unnatural and contrived and does not have the appearance of a “normal” text exchange. There’s a lot more detail and complete sentences and context than what goes into “normal” text exchanges. For example: Roommate: “Why?” Robinson: “Why did I do it?” [Then goes into detailed explanation]. And it’s even more odd considering the circumstances. That is, Robinson is essentially on the run/hiding out. And he’s not just providing details about what he did; he’s going into his family history.

Fourth, the use of the term “my old man.” Who actually talks like that anymore? Referring to one’s dad as “my old man” is pretty much something that’s just done in the movies these days; not out in the real world, and certainly not a thing among the younger generations.

Fifth, referring to the roommate as “my love” and “love” at the end of sentences. Sounds very unnatural to begin with, but even more so in texts and among 20-somethings.

It all just comes across as a very weird, unnatural-looking read.
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I agree. Which is why I asked about the legal meaning of the document. If it's full of lies, would anyone get in trouble?
 
A sampling of Charlie Kirk's lies.

Fact-checks | PolitiFact

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.
www.politifact.com www.politifact.com

Key word being sampling. His lies were so frequent that they are hard to count. Googling Charlie Kirk's lies pulls up a huge repository of information.
 
Icky Mettle said:
This may sound very tinfoil hattish, but holy shit that text exchange looks totally made up; like a poorly written script. First of all, how did he know that law enforcement first got an old man and then interrogated someone wearing similar clothes?

Second, that’s A LOT of detailed information to be putting into that text exchange. Having such detailed texts seems weird to begin with (people don’t typically provide that kind of serial in text exchanges), but also seems weird considering it appears that for much of that text exchange he’s talking about how he is trying not to get caught. If he’s trying not to get caught, why he is so detailed with everything he did?

Third, it seems very unnatural and contrived and does not have the appearance of a “normal” text exchange. There’s a lot more detail and complete sentences and context than what goes into “normal” text exchanges. For example: Roommate: “Why?” Robinson: “Why did I do it?” [Then goes into detailed explanation]. And it’s even more odd considering the circumstances. That is, Robinson is essentially on the run/hiding out. And he’s not just providing details about what he did; he’s going into his family history.

Fourth, the use of the term “my old man.” Who actually talks like that anymore? Referring to one’s dad as “my old man” is pretty much something that’s just done in the movies these days; not out in the real world, and certainly not a thing among the younger generations.

Fifth, referring to the roommate as “my love” and “love” at the end of sentences. Sounds very unnatural to begin with, but even more so in texts and among 20-somethings.

It all just comes across as a very weird, unnatural-looking read.
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Was a single emoji used in those texts?
 
superrific said:
I think you're conflating two different issues. You are worried about social epistemology -- i.e. how can a society arrive at collective knowledge -- which is fine but it's not the same thing as asking whether the words are violent.

I wonder if you'd feel differently if you were on the receiving end. I've heard enough spoken and written testimonials from black people along the lines of, "I've been in fights and had my ass whipped, but nothing hurt me more than when they called me a n*" or "told me I couldn't do it because I was black" or "told I was a criminal because I was black." I've heard the same thing from gay people.

If Alice calls Bob a f*, knowing that it will deeply injure Bob, then how is that not as violent as hitting him in the face?

If a woman is raped, and someone tells her that she had it coming because she was dressing too sexy, how is that not as violent as slapping her for being a silly woman? It's perhaps not as bad as being raped, but I've heard and seen plenty of accounts of women talking about how being dismissed can be so hurtful. This is one reason, of course, that raped women often don't go to the police, or don't press charges. Not the only reason, but it's in the mix.

Trans people commit suicide with abnormally high frequency. Knowing that, if someone with a microphone and an audience demeans trans people, they will have knowingly contributed to their deaths. Why is that not violence?
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I'm not sure what social epistemology has to do with anything. I'm simply saying that I do not think any words can be characterized as "violence." They can be abusive, they can be hurtful, they can be despicable, they can be vicious, but they are not the same thing as "violence." You cannot be convicted for assaulting someone with words. You can't kill someone with words. My point is not to say that speech can't be harmful or to excuse anything said by anybody, but I think it is dangerous to start equating words, of any kind, with violence, even if we recognize that words can have a profoundly negative effect on people.
 
hndrx222 said:
More interesting reporting (and I don’t know Klippenstein’s politics, but have been turned off because he advertises on Twitter):

www.kenklippenstein.com

Exclusive: Leaked Messages from Charlie Kirk Assassin

Accused shooter’s “politics” is not what government and media say
www.kenklippenstein.com www.kenklippenstein.com

I don’t think the kid was/is a Groyper, or had any other obvious left/right bent. The dearth of political posts on these Discord channels seem pretty telling.

That won’t stop the right wing outrage machine from using him (and any beef he had with Kirk’s obvious and outright anti-LGBTQ views) as a representative of “the left” and making excuses for attacks on their political enemies, both using the government, and outside of it.
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He’s on the left. That is an interesting article. His discord online group, that one at least, doesn’t seem to have “radicalized” Robinson.
 
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