The Charlie Kirk Thread

[lawtig02]

I’ve been fairly impressed with how Cox has handled this situation. He seems like a reasonable, thoughtful person. But even he is completely gaslighting us to cover up for the inexcusable and extraordinarily reckless and dangerous statements that keep flowing from national GOP leaders on a minute by minute basis.

 

[farce©]

I’ve been fairly impressed with how Cox has handled this situation. He seems like a reasonable, thoughtful person. But even he is completely gaslighting us to cover up for the inexcusable and extraordinarily reckless and dangerous statements that keep flowing from national GOP leaders on a minute by minute basis.

I will repost my thoughts on the Utah governor’s performance from the other thread….

I thought it was very strange that the governor was the primary speaker at all of those press conferences. Typically a governor (or mayor, or President, or whatever senior executive is present) will offer their concerns and condolences and turn the podium over to the police chief (or fire chief, or FBI AIC, or FEMA official, etc) to discuss details and progress of an investigation.

I felt the governor being the primary spokesperson from the first press conference indicated an immediate political weaponization of this event from the get-go. That feeling was reinforced by the governor’s “analysis” of selected bits of alleged evidence. I was shocked when some people were saying how Utah’s governor acquitted himself well during this “crisis” simply because he wasn’t as crass as Donald Trump, while being every bit as partisan as Trump.

 

[dukeman92]

That is kind of implied. The problem is how

Education.

 

[lawtig02]

I will repost my thoughts on the Utah governor’s performance from the other thread….

I thought it was very strange that the governor was the primary speaker at all of those press conferences. Typically a governor (or mayor, or President, or whatever senior executive is present) will offer their concerns and condolences and turn the podium over to the police chief (or fire chief, or FBI AIC, or FEMA official, etc) to discuss details and progress of an investigation.

I felt the governor being the primary spokesperson from the first press conference indicated an immediate political weaponization of this event from the get-go. That feeling was reinforced by the governor’s “analysis” of selected bits of alleged evidence. I was shocked when some people were saying how Utah’s governor acquitted himself well during this “crisis” simply because he wasn’t as crass as Donald Trump, while being every bit as partisan as Trump.

Fair enough. At least he’s calling for peace and restraint and not casting wide blame on his enemies while absolving his side. Unlike literally everyone in the Trump administration. But I agree that’s a low bar.

 

[SnoopRob]

I’ve been fairly impressed with how Cox has handled this situation. He seems like a reasonable, thoughtful person. But even he is completely gaslighting us to cover up for the inexcusable and extraordinarily reckless and dangerous statements that keep flowing from national GOP leaders on a minute by minute basis.

it's sad if the absolute best we can expect from a "reasonable, thoughtful" Pub is essentially a bosiding, performative rendition of a decent politician due to anything more humane being used against them by the MAGA right.

 

[lawtig02]

it's sad if the absolute best we can expect from a "reasonable, thoughtful" Pub is essentially a bosiding, performative rendition of a decent politician due to anything more humane being used against them by the MAGA right.

Agree. But it is.

 

[1moretimeagain]

 

[lawtig02]

One more comment on Cox. At a very high level, I think the two major forces of destruction and dysfunction in America today are (1) social media, and (2) the incessant stream of divisive, irresponsible rhetoric from GOP leadership. I appreciate that Cox is calling out the first. I find it sad and a little pathetic he’s not willing to call out the second, but I’ll give him a D- for at least not blaming the left alone as that GOP leadership has done.

 

[theel4life]

nerds

 

[ZenMode]

it's sad if the absolute best we can expect from a "reasonable, thoughtful" Pub is essentially a bosiding, performative rendition of a decent politician due to anything more humane being used against them by the MAGA right.

It is sad that we shouldn't expect any honest acknowledgement of the role of Dems in our current political violence situation, despite the fact that much of the fear-mongering is coming from Dems and much of the violence is perpitrated by Dems.

 

[Callatoroy]

Education.

Ok. How would that work? Teachers and parents are just as addicted and we don’t listen to national health experts on that topic. Who are going to be the national leaders? Doesn’t look like our elected politicians who see it as a primary avenue for stoking fear about each other. Im not being critical of your response, just don’t see where the leadership is going to come from

 

[ZenMode]

Cancel culture and wokeness.

These people have a different idea than her and she’s trying to get them fired and quiet their voices.

Do our right wing posters support this?

I think many on the right see this as "being bitten by the mouth you fed".

I generally agree.

I've never had a huge issue, in principle, with people being fired for idiotic things they say in public, when those people are tied back to their employer.

There are exceptions. I didn't agree with Netflix' Jonathan Friedland being fired, but when people say blatantly racist/anti-Semitic, etc things in public, you take the risk.

No idea if this is real, but:

 

[nycfan]

The cooperation of the roommate has been consistently reported. But it sounds like someone in the FBI or other (federal?) law enforcement is leaking that they are seeking to make some sort of federal conspiracy case targeting pro-transgender and other left wing groups:









Cochran argues that the feds are trying to do several things at once — convert this to a federal crime for DOJ to prosecute and seek the death penalty, navigate so that if the federal nexus (hate crime or RICO) fails it doesn’t create a double jeopardy bar on Utah separately prosecuting/seeking the death penalty and establishing a motive (transgender ideology) that serves the Trump admin political purpose not just in this case but more broadly (for example, the proposal preceding this murder to ban transgender people from getting firearms).

Now, that is a lot of supposition from kindling of the incompetence and political posturing of the FBI and Trump Administration so far. A simpler explanation could be Kash’s politicized FBI feeding the MAGA and anti-trans trolls as much red meat as they can to hold off right wing criticism of the FBI’s handling of the investigation without caring much if any of the leaked “investigative avenues” / fishing expedition / conspiracy theories pan out.of course they want this to be a RICO transgender terrorism case that tracks directly back to George Soros and Barack Obama, but just feeding the conspiracy zone with suggestions that is what they are looking for will feed decades of conspiracist influencers (and malign foreign influence programs for that matter).

Of course, even that is probably more complicated that the reality that Patel is a right wing influencer himself who has hollowed out the professionals at the FBI and is a terrible combo of incompetent in his current law enforcement and corruptly motivated to will his worldview into reality.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I will repost my thoughts on the Utah governor’s performance from the other thread….

I thought it was very strange that the governor was the primary speaker at all of those press conferences. Typically a governor (or mayor, or President, or whatever senior executive is present) will offer their concerns and condolences and turn the podium over to the police chief (or fire chief, or FBI AIC, or FEMA official, etc) to discuss details and progress of an investigation.

I felt the governor being the primary spokesperson from the first press conference indicated an immediate political weaponization of this event from the get-go. That feeling was reinforced by the governor’s “analysis” of selected bits of alleged evidence. I was shocked when some people were saying how Utah’s governor acquitted himself well during this “crisis” simply because he wasn’t as crass as Donald Trump, while being every bit as partisan as Trump.

That was my take as well. On MTP, Welker asked him for a response to Trump’s comments about the shooting and he did everything he could to avoid a whiff of criticism. He further thanked Trump for reaching out to him and mentioned that it was the WH that asked him to make appearances on the Sunday shows.
As I said in response to the WSJ article wherein he promoted unsubstantiated hearsay as evidence the shooter was a leftist, it may well be true, but until there is clearer support for that authorities shouldn’t be making such claims. It feels like an attempt to whitewash his conservative upbringing, at best. At worst, it feels like a high level effort to use the murder of one of their own as a tool to drive their base (to vote, to violence?) or possibly as a manufactured basis to have DoJ come after Democratic voices, organizations, donors, etc.
I actually have a good bit of respect for Spencer Cox so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it is very disconcerting to see him so willingly leaping forward on the “leftist assassin” path.

Edit:
Well, shit. I just read nyc’s post that is immediately above mine. Looks like we’re getting the worst case scenario.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

I think many on the right see this as "being bitten by the mouth you fed".

I generally agree.

I've never had a huge issue, in principle, with people being fired for idiotic things they say in public, when those people are tied back to their employer.

There are exceptions. I didn't agree with Netflix' Jonathan Friedland being fired, but when people say blatantly racist/anti-Semitic, etc things in public, you take the risk.

No idea if this is real, but:

Even if you feel using cancel culture against the left is fair play, the following two things are not remotely justified:

1. Going after people who did nothing but criticize Kirk for his statements. Celebrating his death is one thing but simply criticizing the man for how he lived is another.

2. The government actively playing a role in this as Stephen Miller is advocating. And Miller is calling for the government to come down on people I described above who did nothing but criticize Kirk’s politics.

 

[ZenMode]

Yikes.

The below video is zoomed in so it is not very graphic but warning that it shows Kirk recoiling from being hit and then zooms out to show panic.

Like Glenn Frey (?) said... it's "Already Gone".

 

[ZenMode]

Even if you feel using cancel culture against the left is fair play, the following two things are not remotely justified:

1. Going after people who did nothing but criticize Kirk for his statements. Celebrating his death is one thing but simply criticizing the man for how he lived is another.

2. The government actively playing a role in this as Stephen Miller is advocating. And Miller is calling for the government to come down on people I described above who did nothing but criticize Kirk’s politics.

Totally agree with the government not having a role.

As far as what is "fireable", that's obviously up to each individual employer and there will always be disagreements on whether any given firing is/isn't justified.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

There will no doubt be far more evidence coming out about the shooter, but from what we've seen so far it's hard to say they're either right or left wing, but more of a deeply alienated person from a deeply conservative family who attended just one semester of a regular college (Utah State), took some classes at a trade school (Dixie Technical College), and was deeply involved in gamer culture while obviously having some severe mental or emotional issues. It sounds more like they just hated the world generally and lived on the social fringe rather than having any set political or social beliefs. In other words, similar to other

And Singman is still at it and is doubling down this morning on her claims. Virtually every right-wing media claim that the shooter had a transgender boyfriend is based on Singman's tweets. And yet to date there has been no official confirmation of any of her claims, which is based on unnamed sources. It's just more frightening evidence of how a single (as yet) unproven and anonymous claim (in this case her unnamed source) can set off a social and news media frenzy because it fits the world view of a large group of people.

 

[lawtig02]

There will no doubt be far more evidence coming out about the shooter, but from what we've seen so far it's hard to say they're either right or left wing, but more of a deeply alienated person from a deeply conservative family who attended just one semester of a regular college (Utah State), took some classes at a trade school (Dixie Technical College), and was deeply involved in gamer culture while obviously having some severe mental or emotional issues. It sounds more like they just hated the world generally and lived on the social fringe rather than having any set political or social beliefs. In other words, similar to other

And Singman is still at it and is doubling down this morning on her claims. Virtually every right-wing media claim that the shooter had a transgender boyfriend is based on Singman's tweets. And yet to date there has been no official confirmation of any of her claims, which is based on unnamed sources. It's just more frightening evidence of how a single (as yet) unproven and anonymous claim (in this case her unnamed source) can set off a social and news media frenzy because it fits the world view of a large group of people.

Cox did say that on MTP this morning so that probably counts as an “official” statement. If Cox turns out to be wrong, that will go down as an all time irresponsible statement.

 

[Callatoroy]

And I hear all that. I dont call for people to be banned. Like...ever. However, he's crossed the line into the kind of stuff that is going to get people killed, beaten, etc. This push to try to turn this murderer into someone transsexual or dating a transsexual as a pretext to invent a motive is dangerous in the extreme. He started in on it from the beginning, then insisted he never said that, and now has returned to absolute insistence that its absolutely trans motivated.

People that do that with no self awareness of the violence they are inviting against others just can't be part of civil (or even rough edged) discourse.

Honestly at this point he probably shouldn't be banned but Im surely not going to engage with him and risk furthering the kind of threat to people he does.

No, you don’t call for people to be banned. But banning isn’t the solution. Nor is ignoring Ram. This is a very sensitive topic with more than one level of complexity and frustration. My experience has taught me that most people, especially educated people are reachable to some degree with the right approach. That is why “ignore” is so intellectually and emotionally lazy. That isn’t directed at you, or anyone specifically and I do think you are tolerant and respectful. I also think you are wise enough to not have a brief moment of frustration change your attitude about personal engagement. I think if you created a game or little experiment to see who the most respectful and tolerant posters on the zzl are, you would do pretty well. It actually would be pretty interesting and not be difficult to do because it doesn’t take long for personalities to come out.