The "Noble Savage"

TarSpiel

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I keep running into this issue, pretty much all over the place. If someone assumes, thinks, or even argues that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers were happier and better behaved than the "civilizations" which eventually replaced them, they are often accused - and by very intelligent and articulate people - of falling prey to the "myth of the noble savage." The clear implication being that those traditional societies were just as screwed up as we are, and we shouldn't romanticize them.

But I think that their simpler, more family-centered, and less complex lifeways, much more in tune with nature and much more cognizant of their interdependence with each other and the earth, almost certainly produced happier people, by any measurable output. There is hard data that this is the case, and anecdotal data whenever someone from a more traditional culture rejects the "advances" of civilization. (By that I mean especially western industrial civilization, but also really any agriculture-based civilization from about 3000 BCE on).

There are a lot of very intelligent and articulate people on here, some of whom I suppose would scoff at the idea of the "noble savage." Why would our agrarian lifestyle be any better than that of hunter-gatherers, and why would it produce people who are better in any way than theirs did?

I bring it up because I just finished a book called "Hunt, Gather, Parent" about how traditional societies thought about and raised children, and seeing if some of those lessons can be adapted into our own parenting strategies. And ooo boy, the reddit critiques are a thing to behold. I think it's a phenomenal book, which should probably be read by everyone just on principle. But there are just so many people who still look down their noses at traditional ways of doing things and traditional worldviews.
 
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I am not educated enough on ancient (which is crazy recent when put in perspective of human existence) humans to have a real opinion but I find the topic interesting.

I also wonder if there is a sweet spot between when agriculture was invented but before it had a major change on societal structure. (Random musings.)
 
I too wonder about that "sweet spot." The various eras -- standard labelling are: Prehistory (think no writing), Ancient (3000 BC to 500 AD), Medieval (500 to 1500), Early Modern (1500-1800), Modern (1800-1945), and Contemporary (what will we ultimately call it ~ 1945 to the present).

One can tend toward Hobbes and find life to be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short," of toward Jean-Jacques Rousseau and see the Noble Savage living in a world of "Innocence and harmony." Even Rousseau called for a "Social Contract" though as people moved into larger groups leaving behind the small gatherings and simple concerns.

Lots of political movements harken back to a time of simpler concerns. Mussolini's "Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism" glorifies a perception of daily life in the Roman Empire in that way. Of course, MAGA does something similar -- calling for a time when "America was Great." Hitler's "Third Reich" looked back to The Holy Roman Empire and The German Empire as deserving of emulation.

Clearly the fascists are not raising up the Noble Savage but I'd say there is an ahistorical nature about both in that they shove Hobbes to the side on behalf of a narrow Rousseauean authoritarian "Social Contract" that could actually be pretty nasty and brutish for the common folk in that lives were short, disease final, birth dangerous for mother and child, and injuries nearly always fatal.

I just got a link to a January Atlantic Magazine article titled, "What if Our Ancestors Didn’t Feel Anything Like We Do?
The historians who want to know how our ancestors experienced love, anger, fear, and sorrow," by Gal Beckerman. I think that might provide some fodder for this discussion. I'm certainly working on inserting some considerations of this type into my own classes this spring.

Watched this short video (43:32) yesterday and it also gave me some food for thought.



I've clearly not had enough coffee yet so these are the thoughts of a mind a-wandering in need of caffeine.
 
"disease final, birth dangerous for mother and child,"

Before an agrarian society, there were a hell of a lot fewer diseases and even less chance of catching them because of limited contact. For much the same reason, birth was not nearly as dangerous for women and children.

However, starving to death was more likely as was death or crippling injuries and developing all the accoutrements that we consider civilization was almost impossible.
 
"disease final, birth dangerous for mother and child,"

Before an agrarian society, there were a hell of a lot fewer diseases and even less chance of catching them because of limited contact. For much the same reason, birth was not nearly as dangerous for women and children.

However, starving to death was more likely as was death or crippling injuries and developing all the accoutrements that we consider civilization was almost impossible.
Agree on the disease point (no domesticated animals plus small population units) but both infant mortality and death or injury at birth were very high.
 
Agree on the disease point (no domesticated animals plus small population units) but both infant mortality and death or injury at birth were very high.
Not nearly as dangerous as being born in a public maternity ward in any city in the 1800s.
 
Not sure that isn't more of an urban/rural comparison than "noble savage" v "so-called civilization" one.
 
Not sure that isn't more of an urban/rural comparison than "noble savage" v "so-called civilization" one.
It is, even if only indirectly since agrarianism led to the class system which led to the statement that "Gentlemen to not carry disease", a sentiment expressed by many doctors when the initial push for antisepsis began.

Where agrarian living started, there was an almost immediate difference in the size and strength of the bodies by class that continued to progress as witnessed by the use of things like the common and royal cubit. Essentially the measurement from fingertips to elbow, the royal cubits several inches larger. While it seems like I'm condemning civilization, I'm not. I'm just saying we need to be aware that we created problem, we're still, by historical standards, damned new at it and we aren't close to knowing how to do it well.
 
Where agrarian living started, there was an almost immediate difference in the size and strength of the bodies by class that continued to progress as witnessed by the use of things like the common and royal cubit. Essentially the measurement from fingertips to elbow, the royal cubits several inches larger. While it seems like I'm condemning civilization, I'm not. I'm just saying we need to be aware that we created problem, we're still, by historical standards, damned new at it and we aren't close to knowing how to do it well.
Can you describe what you believe to be the difference between the royal cubit and common cubit and how that is indicative of the difference between "bodies by class"? I'm really lost in your explanation.
 
But I think that their simpler, more family-centered, and less complex lifeways, much more in tune with nature and much more cognizant of their interdependence with each other and the earth, almost certainly produced happier people, by any measurable output. There is hard data that this is the case, and anecdotal data whenever someone from a more traditional culture rejects the "advances" of civilization. (By that I mean especially western industrial civilization, but also really any agriculture-based civilization from about 3000 BCE on).
Can you share with us some of this data that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers were happy, both hard data and anecdotal?

That might help the conversation get flowing. Thanks.
 

I had thought it might have something to do with Charlemagne (who was very tall) but it goes farther back and to a different region. But it is still may have something to do with nutrition and the ruling class being larger.
 
Can you describe what you believe to be the difference between the royal cubit and common cubit and how that is indicative of the difference between "bodies by class"? I'm really lost in your explanation.
Better nutrition equals greater body size. Upon brushing up on this, I see that the interpretation I learned 60 years ago is not as generally accepted today. I do know that the skeletal evidence cited at that time indicated a smaller, frailer physique among the less privileged with some things pointing toward dietary lacks. I don't know if what I learned was wrong, the progenitor behind the standardization of the two types of cubits for different purposes like ton and long ton, or different interpretations of the same thing to meet the ideas of education at the time.
 
Can you share with us some of this data that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers were happy, both hard data and anecdotal?

That might help the conversation get flowing. Thanks.

I don't have a link to the World Happiness Report's exact section - I think it was from their 2024 study - but I found a synopsis of it here, Hunter-gatherer happiness
 
I also wonder if there is a sweet spot between when agriculture was invented but before it had a major change on societal structure. (Random musings.)

This is an interesting point. I used to think of "hunter-gatherer" and "agrarian" in a pretty binary way, and only slowly started to realize that some blend of the two has been the predominant way of living around the planet for at least the last 5-10 thousand years. Cities only appeared about 3,000 BC, so before that, and in very many parts of the world, small communities or families had gardens to supplement their hunting and gathering.

Is that a sweet spot? Maybe...seems like there would be a lot of advantages to that way of living.
 
Our perceptions may not match those of our ancestors…

“perhaps, despite seemingly worse health, hunger, and violence, hunter-gatherers are/were significantly happier than people in the modern world.” (Link Above)
 
Better nutrition equals greater body size. Upon brushing up on this, I see that the interpretation I learned 60 years ago is not as generally accepted today. I do know that the skeletal evidence cited at that time indicated a smaller, frailer physique among the less privileged with some things pointing toward dietary lacks. I don't know if what I learned was wrong, the progenitor behind the standardization of the two types of cubits for different purposes like ton and long ton, or different interpretations of the same thing to meet the ideas of education at the time.
Thanks for that.

I admit to having a very rudimentary understanding of cubits (basically just what I picked up learning about various OT items/places in biblical studies). But my understanding is that common cubits and royal cubits are different but related units of measurement that were intentionally different, not something that changed due to "growth" in people.

I do think there is ample evidence that increased financial resources (even when those were measured by available food sources) lead to increased human growth due to increased nutrition (until a tipping point is reached where greater nutrition no longer leads to significant growth or even growth regresses due to overnutrition). So I'd say you're probably right in our greater point.
 
I get the idea that perhaps the primary difference in the two types of cubits was that "Royal" structures required precision while common ones did not, thus one was standardized and enforced and the other was more random.
 
"The Gods Must be Crazy" is of course a modern, Western film on society. But I think the portrayal of the Bushmen probably fairly accurate.

It would not surprise me at all that pre-modern families (which means something different according to place and time) could be more "happy," so to speak.

They were not run awash in things like social media. Or even just regular media, for that matter. When you have no idea of anything else, it makes sense that you may be content with just gathering around the campfire at night with the rest of your group. You wouldn't have to judge yourself by outsiders. You would only judge yourself by who is fastest, best with bow and arrow, who could sing the communal songs best, etc. But that's natural. Not like judging yourself against Chris Hemsworth or Sydney Sweeney. Or all of the other stuff you see online.

Whatever the case, we do not live in a world like that and never will again. Well, at least until "apocalyptic" times, should they come about.
 
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